Lee Rudin

Kevin Daisey (00:34)
All right, we are recording. Lee, what's up, man?

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (00:38)
What's up Kevin? Thanks for having me.

Kevin Daisey (00:40)
My middle name is Lee. Probably didn't know that.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (00:43)
I was thinking when I was coming on here today that you could like have a play on pushing daisies, right? With your podcast, you know? ⁓

Kevin Daisey (00:51)
Yeah, actually it's funny.

people I moved from my hometown, which is an Island by the way, off the East coast. And, ⁓ so really small area, small Island and people where I'm live now in Virginia beach are like, man, you must've got picked on and beat up, you know, for your last name being Daisy. And I was like, well, not where I'm from. Cause we own most of the stuff around the Island. So not that my family's not rich at all. It's just.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (01:15)
You

Kevin Daisey (01:20)
We have like a clamming company and like a, you know, a doc with, for like fishing, just random stuff.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (01:27)
It's a good name. It's a guess it dovetails with branding, right? Like you could do stuff with it. Some people get these names like what are going to do with that?

Kevin Daisey (01:34)
That's right, just like your name, right?

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (01:37)
I stepped in it, you know, especially if going to be a PI lawyer, it doesn't hurt.

Kevin Daisey (01:41)
well, we're to get some branding and, and marketing here just in a minute, but, wanted to just come out with a question for you from my young attorneys or my new, ⁓ well, those thinking about certain their own firm. I always like to focus on them. You know, I have a lot of experts on the show and people that have done great things, but I like to make sure that, you know, those, those ones that are about to jump out and hand them in shingle and all that good stuff.

So what's some words of wisdom, something you would tell a new lawyer about to start their own firm right now? Yeah.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (02:14)
All let me start with this, which is

I was in their shoes because I did not plan for this. This is something that came to me as an offer I had to refuse from my old firm. And that's how this firm came to be. So a lot of what I can share and I'm happy to do it. Right. So if you have any listeners that want to shoot me an email, ⁓ reach out to my team, schedule a call, happy to do it because I learned by necessity. But the more I've learned, the more I've been

I mean enthralled with the process and it's just, it's a new adventure every day, know, new entrepreneurial adventure, but in a space that, you know, I was comfortable in substantively. So what's the one thing? And I used to laugh at my old managing partners at different firms, but cashflow, cashflow. So you want to start out on your own.

You got to figure out, can I make it 90 days, 120 days before I see a dime? Because if you're an hourly billing client, excuse me, an hourly billing firm, the work you do on day one, if you're lucky, you used to get paid on day 31. Maybe you got a retainer, but maybe you bill it on day 31, which means you don't see it maybe till day 60. Maybe it's day 90. So I think if you can get through that and start getting the cycle of money coming in, it'll allow you to sleep a little bit better.

And that's not dissimilar to the contingency fee model, right? If you get that first case and they go treat for three months, your demand gets out, maybe you're seeing some money month four, maybe. Maybe it's month five. But if you can weather that storm, it gives you some peace of mind. And we can talk ad nauseam about kind of how to build the firm in a ⁓ skinny way, but that's the key, right? Understand where your threshold is, where you're not taking any money and you gotta be able to survive. you know, what's that date that you can...

Bite hard and get through it.

Kevin Daisey (04:02)
Yeah, I mean, that's, that's huge. mean, in my business, um, I think, you know, just having most business owners that I've known throughout my, my business life that, you know, understand cashflow and focus on that. And no matter what your business is, um, and especially in the legal field, like, like you're saying that four months, mean, you know, I can imagine going back to when I started, if I had four months, five months without any pay, no money coming in.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (04:31)
Kevin, think about it the other way. It's not just no money coming in, but you're probably bleeding out of every orifice because you're trying to market. You might have to go in the beginning, you've got to pay your malpractice insurance. You've got to go get technology. Maybe you just are operating off of one phone. So the money's all going out and not all of it could be on a credit card. So you have hopefully a nest egg to launch and then you have...

Hopefully some money coming in because maybe you had a couple clients or you knew what you could do to start But you have to have that tolerance because it's going to be painful in the beginning

Kevin Daisey (05:07)
Yeah. Well then

I think it's the next thing you said is staying skinny, being efficient, you know, not to get a couple of good wins and then go, Ooh, let me hire people I don't need or add systems or technology I don't need or get that awesome office. Uh, and I'm in my first year and, know, I just want to have that, that look that I'm doing good. Uh, but staying skinny and lean and being able to grow efficiently.

I think is massively important.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (05:38)
You know, and it depends on who your audience is, Kevin. So like I, I stayed super skinny for over a year and I just, I'm in an office now because I felt like I could have to stop meeting clients at the coffee shop near my house. ⁓ and you know, eventually you're to get big enough where you do have to purport a certain image, but a lot of folks, you know, when I tell people kind of what I'm doing, leveraging technology, leveraging virtual staff, they're

Kevin Daisey (05:51)
you

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (06:06)
super intrigued because maybe they didn't think it could be done that way and so you're showing them that you're working smarter and Staying skinny who's gonna tell you that's a bad idea

Kevin Daisey (06:17)
Nobody on this show. That's for sure. Yeah. No, it's great. It's, know, with the, virtual staffing and technology and, you know, being able to have video calls and things like, it's just, so much has changed in the last few years, last few months. Yeah. AI, ⁓ there's, there's so many things out there that you can leverage and use to, you know, streamline your business. Keep, keep your costs down.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (06:18)
Mm-mm, nope. Echo Chamber.

Kevin Daisey (06:43)
Uh, also, but also improve the experience the clients having. So yeah, it's pretty cool. Um, so real quick, um, obviously, uh, root in law down in Louisiana. You also were practicing now in Texas. Uh, but yeah, tell us a little bit about, you know, the name and the brand and, and, and kind of, I guess your story let's, let's dive into that.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (06:47)
That's right. Yeah.

Sure.

So I kind of alluded to it before. I came out of a defense model. I worked as a defense lawyer. I wouldn't say exclusively, but the percentages were high percentage defense work with a sprinkling of plaintiff, maybe commercial lid or some little bit of personal injury for about a dozen years. I was at my last firm, which was a great firm and one that I really wouldn't have thought to leave, but organically I had grown this plaintiff PI practice.

And I loved it. I liked helping people. I liked, you know, the sales component of it, you know, trying to attract that client. Cause it's not that easy to go attract an insurance company or a corporate client. There's a lot of red tape. So getting those wins can be very difficult, but when you're, when you're handling work for small businesses and individuals, there's a lot of those people and you meet them on the street. You meet them at the grocery store and you can make a sale just by listening to somebody and maybe just doing a decent thing for them.

by just giving them a little bit of free advice and being a sounding board. that sort of, I'll say, ⁓ generosity with information led to opportunities to represent people, people close to me. Then they told their friends and their neighbors, and it began to snowball until I built a practice that rivaled my defense practice at the last firm. And my firm said, you know, we never envisioned you building a plaintiff PI practice in our defense firm.

And so we have to curtail your growth and we want to shift the money. And I said, you ain't doing the first one and you ain't doing the second one. And that was it. And, I was leaving for vacation. They told this to me at my annual review. was leaving two days later to go on vacation. spent the entire time in Mexico, calling back to the U S trying to figure out from friends and colleagues, like, what does it take at a minimum to hang your own shingle?

And, ⁓ once I knew what that was going to be, I figured out which of the clients would come with me. You know, what kind of PI work that I have, what kind of hourly work that I have, how many months would it take to survive? I knew I had the tolerance for it and that was it. June 1, 2023, we launched Rudin Law. so we're about to hit two years. ⁓ we grossed seven figures in our first full calendar year. So that was, that was awesome. we may double it this year. So.

Kevin Daisey (09:20)
Thanks.

That's huge,

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (09:32)
Yeah, we're, ⁓ I mean this, lot of this business I've come to learn as a numbers game, you know, and if you know how to pull the right levers and marketing and you're willing to take a chance sometimes, cause there's, you gotta be, gotta be aggressive and you gotta know sometimes you might lose your shirt, but if you don't do that, there's, you're not going to be able to pounce on those opportunities. And so, yeah.

Kevin Daisey (09:53)
Yeah, that's,

that's awesome. Yeah. First year, seven figures. That's an accomplishment right there. Um, I know, um, it's an older staff. It's a few years old probably, but I think it's like 4%. Is it 4 % of businesses get past a million in revenue, like in the whole country or something like that. It's a, it's a small, uh, small percentage. So.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (09:59)
Appreciate that.

Look, I can't imagine more power to all the people that when they do it because they wanted to, or they do it because they had to. I was lucky to have been at firms with good partners and, know, it was obviously running a different kind of business.

but watching them run a business and they were generous with ideas and explaining to me how certain things worked. And I was interested in learning about it. Not, not as much the marketing, but at least the operation side, because man coming out, not knowing how this is all supposed to work. Cause folks, I you don't learn this in law school. And so a lot of it is just trying to figure it out. And that's why I love doing things like this or going to conferences and talking to colleagues and vendors, because you just learn kind of how the sausage is made and

If you figure out, you take a liking to it, which I do, it could be really fun.

Kevin Daisey (11:06)
Yeah, mean, you know, falling in love with the business side of things, uh, is, you know, for me, where it's at, you know, I don't, I don't do marketing or SEO for clients or build websites. I haven't done that in a long time. I like, I like what we do, but it's, it's more growing the business and marketing the business and being successful and talking to clients and, you know, and winning, you know, it's, uh,

But then, yeah, to your point, that's why I love this podcast and having people like you on the show or going to conferences. Like, like what else can you figure out and learn? You know, what is, what is Lee doing? Like that maybe I can apply to my business. And, ⁓ I think that's why I enjoy the show mostly more than marketing or getting my name out there. ⁓ you what I can pick up on. So it's pretty fun, pretty fun stuff. So, so you just dove right in and came right out the gate.

You're almost into your second year. You might hit two million and that's, that's pretty strong. So, ⁓ congratulations. I love your brand. Everyone check out, ⁓ is it get rude and get rude.com or get rude and get rude.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (12:10)
Thanks.

GetRude.com. So this is the mentality,

right? When I came out, my first calendar year was June 1 to, my first year was calendar year 2023. All so those seven months. I was operating under a different slogan because I was doing hybrid work. I was doing some defense work, doing some plaintiff work. I joke, and I don't know if I can curse on your show, but I'm gonna do it anyway. I said, you can't say fuck the insurance company and represent the insurance company. So when,

Kevin Daisey (12:43)
You can't.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (12:44)
You can't, I mean, not, not if you want to do it with a straight face. So what I did was I'd be talking to folks like you and I'd ask them, Hey, Kevin, you tired of getting pushed around by the insurance company? And they'd look at me, they do what you just did. They'd smirk. They'd give me a rise smile. And I'd say, because you got to stop being polite and get rude. And they'd chuckle. And I said, I think this is going to work. I think it's going to work. It's silly. Um, to some and to others, they're going to look at it like, yeah, that guy's going to get rude with the insurance company, but either way.

They shouldn't forget it. All right. And that, that's it. That's marketing, right? You just don't want to, when the, when the accident happens, God bless you if it happens, cause they're underneath your billboard. All right. But if not, they got to remember who you are, you know, and in this day and age, a lot of guys, they'll tie their, their brand to a phone number or something. I'm not a fan. I'll probably make fun of it on a social media video. At some point I got some ideas. ⁓ but you know, and I don't, I don't have a last name.

Kevin Daisey (13:16)
Yeah, I like it. Love it.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (13:44)
that you can't do nothing with, right? Obviously I was able to pivot it into rude because my last name is Rudin. But I mean, some folks they've got these names and it's like, well, what are you going to do? Maybe you go with just your, your two law firm name. ⁓ so you'll go with initials and acronym, whatever. You got to make something happen. I'm just lucky that it works for the kind of lawyer that I am and my personality.

Kevin Daisey (14:07)
Yeah. And then also,

so yeah, you gotta stand out. You gotta be yourself and, and especially pulling those two things together, right. ⁓ and not making stuff up or just kind of going in some direction. You're not really nationally that way. It's just not going to work out well for you. I think, you know, like you got your Rude Mania shirt on, which is awesome. And if you go to his website.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (14:29)
If you look over here, I'm gonna show you this. So that's

WWE Championship belt and I can tell you story about that too.

Kevin Daisey (14:35)
We got to hear about that for sure. But go to his website, take a look at the, the brand and the style of the website. And, and, ⁓ you'll just get a feel for, you know, how he's different than most of the law firms you would typically see down the street. ⁓ little, know, bland polished kind of suit and tie, ⁓ typical kind of firm. ⁓ he's, he's going in the opposite direction of that. So you got to stand out. You got to be different, especially in this market.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (15:01)
other way.

Yeah, I mean, this is a market where maybe you or I or the folks listening to your podcast, we're not hiring somebody who's advertising because we're probably calling our friend and saying, Hey, I got into an accident. Who should I use? Now you still might use me, right? Or a peer of mine because we're quality, but you don't know that we just happen to be advertising. You know, my mentality is in what business would you come out, try to operate a business and not tell anybody what you do.

But lawyers do that all the time. And so I said, I'm a, I don't believe in that at all. I think we should be out there marketing, but if I'm going to do it because it is a chore, I want to like it. I want to have fun. So, you you could check out my website. We've got a social media carousel towards the bottom, but, go onto my Instagram or my Tik TOK or my YouTube. It's all at get rude law. And I just want to have fun with it. So like I told my social media vendor, I'm never

going to write a static ad that says Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, like I'm never doing it. But I will get dressed up as Santa Claus or I'll spin a dreidel or I'll get dressed like the Easter bunny or you name it. If I think it's going to be fun and silly and I can be clever about writing the script, like I want to do it because I'll enjoy it and maybe it'll work. People don't know. You don't know what's going to work. You just try.

Kevin Daisey (16:24)
Yeah. I mean,

yeah, your social media is, is phenomenal. So, uh, you guys have to check that out. So, you know, with, with Lee here really, you know, he's got the unique brand he's got, he's having fun with it. He's, um, enjoying the social media, enjoying the advertising. So that all comes through too. Like if you're, if you're seen or shown in video, people want to have that connection. Um, I'll tell clients all the time or we're any law firm with zero video on their website and they're not doing social. It's like.

people today need, you know, before hiring a lawyer, they've never hired a lawyer, hopefully, probably not. Like, what do they expect? They need to feel comfortable. They need to trust you. ⁓ so there's a lot of conversion kind of tactics that kind of play out through the social and through video or through your brand or your website where they go, you know what? I feel like, you know, I can talk to this guy. I feel like he can take care of my case. I feel like he knows what he's talking about. ⁓

And so, but first is getting noticed that you're even there as an option, right? So, ⁓ yeah, so.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (17:30)
So Kevin,

my first foray into these videos, my real foray into what we're doing now, I playing a pickup basketball game and it's a Saturday, I'm in the lane and a guy comes through the lane, a big guy, and catches me with an elbow. And so I have the best shiner of my life and I'm due to film content on Wednesday, Saturday. I'm like, what the heck am I gonna do? I said, I'm gonna rewrite all these scripts and I'm gonna write as if I have a black eye, because I do.

And so I did one like a boxer. did one land in a handicapped parking spot. Haven't just gotten like knocked out after an accident. And I did one dress like a clown. And my dad looked at me and he said, Lee, you know, don't you think you're going to destroy your reputation dressing like a clown on the internet? was like, dad, what reputation? No one knows who I am. And so I got to stop and know me before they're going to care whether I'm dressed like a sheep or a clown or all the other things that I get dressed as. And maybe.

Half of them will hate me, but the other half will be like that crazy bastard. He's going to be the guy that's going to win my case because he's going to think outside the box to get the job done. Just like he's doing on the internet. I don't know. I don't know what people think.

Kevin Daisey (18:39)
Yeah, not being known is way bigger of a problem, ⁓ obscurity, right? No one knows who you are, what you do. That's your problem. more so than anything else. And so, ⁓ you can't, well, I think I've advertised too much in that area. No, you have not. Like,

You cannot get yourself in front of the same people enough times, right? And so it's, ⁓ and if they even seen it, do they hold onto it? Do you, you know, there's no, not a chance. So.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (19:03)
There's.

There's two things that I think I'll know that it really worked. If I'm walking the concourse at the smoothie King center or the superdome and someone's like, ⁓ that's the get rude guy. Right. If that happens, that's one. And the second one is little kids dressing like you at Halloween. Then you know that your local marketing has permeated into the common space and that tells you like, all right, I think you've made an inroad.

So we'll see. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (19:40)
That's awesome.

Yeah, so yeah, anyone that's like, yeah, I don't think it's too much or whatever yet. have, if you're new, you have no reputation, no notice you are, and that's your biggest concern, honestly. So you get your name out there, you need to be known. And yeah, like I think back to what you just like, have fun with it. Like if you're not having fun and you're like, ugh, I don't wanna do this, this isn't me, or I don't like this, then.

it's not going to come through that you're enjoying it. So that's super important.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (20:14)
But it's part of the job, right? So like that, that's the thing. If you want to be out there, no matter what, whether you want to be an advertising lawyer or not, you can't have a vacant or dormant social media profile because that's a place that people go to gather information. So your website can be as polished as you want, but if you have two posts and they're from four years ago and you have nothing on YouTube, which is, you know, apparently the second largest search engine in the world behind Google. If you're not doing that,

you're doing yourself a disservice and you know, the legal industry is funny because folks think they're holier than now, but you're still running a business. So you've got to do what's good for the business. Obviously you want to do it the right way, ethically and with the best interests of your clients. But like you said, obscurity, that's going to be the nail in the coffin.

Kevin Daisey (21:04)
You know, it's like a grant card and says, uh, if you don't know me, you can't flow me. So my cashflow, he's talking about, can't hire him or buy one of his products or invest in one of his companies. If you don't know who I am, you know, so.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (21:12)
Sure.

When

someone told me, I'm going to botch the statistic, that Morgan & Morgan, the biggest 800 pound gorilla, they come into a market and their share of the market is sub 20%. That's the biggest player in the space. That means there's 80%. My numbers could be off. They could be sub 10%, but that means there's 80 % of people that are hiring lawyers are out there. You don't need all of it. You just need a little bit of it and you'll do totally fine.

Kevin Daisey (21:38)
Yeah.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (21:48)
you know, make an impact on a lot of people's lives and do, you know, and run a very successful business. But they got to know who are.

Kevin Daisey (21:55)
Yeah, so, and the other thing I tell people too, like, oh, Morgan & Morgan's coming into, they have a certain brand. Not everyone wants to engage with Morgan & Morgan. Not everyone's gonna, it's not gonna appeal to them. I know they're shoes, I'm not gonna probably have a lawyer that I'm gonna get to talk with. Obviously, John Morgan's not gonna be talking to me. Some people just aren't going to relate with that brand. It might not even just, they might not connect with it for whatever reason. You can see five billboards.

and maybe that one just doesn't hit, right? So you gotta think about your brand, your unique offering, who you are, and you're gonna get certain clients that come to you, they're attracted to what you have, and some might go to them. But just because they market and come and ⁓ try to saturate the market, they're not gonna get all these clients. It's not gonna happen.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (22:46)
Like I'm, sitting here,

I'm drinking a Starbucks coffee or I think about it in terms of a burger, right? Not every, not everybody is going to want to eat that five guys burger or that Burger King burger. Some of them are only going to go to the boutique one-off burger shop. And if that's who you are, that's your market.

You're not advertising to the folks that want to go get a quick burger or a burger that tastes the same every time you want the one that's customized to your liking that you can walk up and place to order the way you want it. Okay. So who cares that Morgan and Morgan came in or who cares that there's an 800 pound gorilla that's been in your market for a long time. They're not, they don't have enough market share that you should be worried. They're going to put you out of business.

Kevin Daisey (23:28)
Yeah, I mean, it's even better opportunity potentially because you're to have the lawyers that pull back or they say, oh, I can't do it. Like you can say, I'm going to be here to pick up everything they don't get. Like, how do I become the one that gets the 80 % or the 20 % or whatever it is, your slice.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (23:49)
Or the disenchanted, right? The folks that have been there before. Maybe it's not their first accent. They've been down the road with the big firm and they said, I didn't like that customer service. I want to do the opposite. You could be the opposite or somewhere in the middle where you say, you weren't happy because you kept getting moved from lawyer to lawyer because there was attrition. You hire us. You hire my firm. You're hiring me or you're hiring me and my one guy, my two guys, meaning I'm going to touch your case. You want to come meet with me? We'll schedule a call. We'll have a meeting. You're not going to.

be told you can never see me? That's crazy.

Kevin Daisey (24:20)
And the other thing too is this like for me, we just had an all hands meeting today with my teams. have 50, we 51 on the call. So we're over the 50 person mark. um, appreciate it. Um, it's just crazy to think, but so, but as you go, so say if you're new, you're just Lee. Lee's like, Hey, you're talking to me. I'm going to hand you your case. I'm going to sit down with you. But as you grow.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (24:33)
Bravo.

Kevin Daisey (24:46)
You know, you need to lean into and leverage the growth to the advantage. Oh, well, the guy down the street, he's just a solo guy. He's not going to be maybe available. Like you got to play the part. so, Hey, we're a little bit bigger, but we're still nimble. I'll still be able to meet with you, but we have systems and processes and we'll give you updates and blah, blah. And as you get a little bit bigger, you just got to lean into why, why work better and what we've learned.

and we've grown, and the Morgan & Morgans, use, we're the biggest in the country, which is a massive accomplishment. It's not gonna resonate with everybody though.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (25:25)
Well, think one of the, the second to last point you just made, think is critical, right? You can teach people or to explain to people, Hey, I was there. And I saw that, you know, even though I was saying it was the best way to be on my own, it wasn't the best way. Cause I needed a little bit of an army. And then I built that army. And then I saw there was another way to make it better systems, processes. Maybe it's an assembly line model, whatever it is. You can, if you can convey the message and resonate with people.

Kevin Daisey (25:45)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (25:53)
that you can deliver the service that they want or that they need and that the other way that others are doing it isn't the right way. I think that's how you get your wins.

Kevin Daisey (26:02)
Yeah, a hundred percent.

think I have had some lawyers that I've talked to, they're like, well, I like to have real connection with my clients. And if I grow, that's not what I want. And so they're just thinking small and they're thinking, you know, they're just trying to avoid the growth, right? Like you need to grow. You need to invest in systems and processes and make the experience with the client better. And that's just part of growing. so.

You can look at the Morgan and Morgan say, Hey, they did all that very successfully. So much so that that's where they are now, but they now appeal to a different kind of clientele and they won't appeal to others. And so that they can lean into what makes them different, which is we're the biggest law firm in the country. And some people might want to go that route. So

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Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (28:06)
Well, we were talking offline about what you can do to leverage technology and virtual staff and things like that. so because you said ⁓ you talk about scale and one of the things you start out small, necessity is the mother of invention. So you figure out how do I operate bigger when maybe I don't have the financial bandwidth to do it. Obviously technology can be the first lever you pull. But as soon as I discovered offshore staffing,

And I'd heard about it, but onshore, right? was, would remember reading about firms, big white shoe firms out of New York that were sending all their back office work to their white shoe offices in Cleveland because the cost of living was less. And so they could pay the back, back a house team. was very important, very competent, just didn't live in one of the most expensive metropolitan areas. Well, what we're talking about now is really not much different. I mean, I have a team, we are now eight.

I've got five virtual and I mean, I don't care if you're virtual living down the road or virtual living, you know, down in another country. If you do great work and you're a team player and you're pleasant to be around and, and that, and my clients love you. That's all I need. I'm not, I don't care that people think about the virtual model as being something that they shouldn't touch. think they're being foolish. and when I, people, what you can do and how many

Kevin Daisey (29:13)
you

Agreed.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (29:34)
how many bodies you can add for the cost of maybe one domestic team member. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Kevin Daisey (29:43)
No, I totally agree. I know a lot of firms that have been successful with doing that. And again, the client at the end of the day, they are worried about where they are, their case, their finances, whatever. You're giving them the best experience possible, the information on time, moving their case on through, and hopefully getting them the best result. It doesn't matter where the person is sitting that's doing the work. So.

Yeah, I think a hundred percent leveraging, ⁓ virtual staffing. know we, we use virtual staffing for like admin and, and each of my companies has a handful and they've been just amazing. They're part of our team. were on our calls today. ⁓ we, they're like full time. They're not, you know, just working through some like video, like some portal, like they're on our video calls every morning, interact with, with clients. They, they're doing real work and helping.

move things along and help the experience. it's, I think law firms should definitely, and I think not a lot of law firms are even considering this or even know much about it, to be honest with you, in the legal space.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (30:50)
What's crazy to me, Kevin, is that if you could tell your client, hey, I have more flexibility, if we get in a bind, I can cut my fees because I've kept my overhead skinny.

And that means I'm not worried about making payroll or because I've, I've done something to serve myself or because I'm not willing to be, ⁓ to think outside of the box. That seems like a pretty good selling point. If a client gets severely injured and you find out it's a minimum policy, but you've got the flexibility to be generous and make, you know, make a mark on a person because you're not worried about paying some, you know, older secretary's bloated salary just cause they've been doing it for so long. Like I don't buy that.

I had so many people that worked in my office that were getting overpaid. Now that I see what folks outside the country, they can do that job and they're making a fifth of what this senior paralegal or senior assistant was making. It's crazy.

Kevin Daisey (31:46)
Yeah, what

company are you using like a staffing company?

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (31:51)
So I had sourced ⁓ some team members originally through Legalsoft. But my most recent hires, now that I kind of understand what I need, I set up interviews through different upwork. I met some people. And obviously, the most important thing if you're hiring folks that are bilingual is that there's not going to be ⁓ any issues with communication if you have folks locally that might not be able to understand.

So that's very important to me. have a bilingual client base, so it's very important that I have Spanish and English speaking team members. ⁓ Look, we had somebody the other day, potential new client called. He messaged us, I responded to him. I said, someone on my team's gonna call you. That gentleman is bilingual. And his English is perfect. His Spanish is perfect, his English is perfect. And when he called, this person talked to him for a few seconds and hung up. And I messaged the guy and said, hey, what... ⁓

What's going on? heard the call got disconnected and he said, you I don't want to speak to somebody who English isn't their first language. And I told my team that guy can fuck right off. We ain't, we ain't going to work for him either. Right. I don't, I don't appreciate that. ⁓ I don't appreciate that because we've got people in this community, you know, I'm in New Orleans. We've got people who English isn't their first language either, and they are as American as they come. But so their parents speak Spanish at home or they speak Russian or, ⁓ a dialect of Arabic.

Kevin Daisey (33:06)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (33:16)
Who cares? You know? Yeah, I didn't like it at all. I don't, but we don't need to, there's plenty of people that want our help.

Kevin Daisey (33:22)
We don't have to take on every client and that's definitely in my case because I signed up long-term relationships with clients. So we got to be a little picky, but, ⁓ yeah, I mean, with my staff at array, like we, we actually do a lot of, ⁓ you know, Spanish translated content, SEO ranking SEO for, ⁓ Spanish. ⁓ and I've actually was just talking to someone. It's like, they have a Portuguese, niche outside of the Boston area. So.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (33:28)
That's right.

Kevin Daisey (33:51)
Um, but I think I have five staff internally that in the US that speak Spanish fluently. Um, and then of course, some of our virtual assistants, um, speak Spanish. So.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (34:04)
Yeah,

you know what I've come to learn and I've grown up a nice size Spanish speaking client base and I've got some folks that are in the Arabic community here and often times people go with the people that they know, right? So maybe it's a Spanish speaking lawyer or an Arabic speaking lawyer. And then you come to find out that they don't get the sort of information that they should if they were speaking English and understood the documents that were coming through.

And so I've gotten a lot of clients that come to me dissatisfied with their, ⁓ the lawyer who's like them because they just felt like they got short-shifted. And so, you know, I've got a team that can speak with folks where I can't sometimes, but you you deserve to get the service that you should get if you were speaking English as your first language. And so.

You know, just because a lawyer is speaking your language doesn't mean they're doing the right thing as a lawyer and that's got to come first and foremost.

Kevin Daisey (35:02)
Yeah, I feel like you know, speaking language or having people available to speak the languages is an add-on, but the you need to run the law firm properly and do things right by the client and give them the influence you need. That's way more important. I think if you can do all that and then you're able to serve them at their language too, that's the winning combination for sure.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (35:24)
And you

think, right, you would think that somebody wouldn't, you know, sell you up the river, right? Just cause you don't understand. But I've had folks come to me and say, Oh, I settled the case for $10,000. And I was told I'm getting two. I don't understand. How could that be? And I said, Oh, your lawyer didn't explain where the money's going. Like, no, they just gave me a check and said, sign the papers. No, no discussion on the front end. No discussion on the back end. And you know, this, lot of what we do, right? We're counselors. We're talking people off the ledge. We're

giving them education so that they understand they're not always going to be happy, but they do need to understand what the process is like on the front end so that when you got to pay doctor's bills back and when you have to pay the lawyer back, they're not saying, is the first time I ever heard that I have to pay anybody back out of this settlement sum. It can't be when it's time to the check. They're going to be up the wall. Crazy. No. No.

Kevin Daisey (36:14)
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, not walking away very much in that case.

Yeah, well, no, this, mean, all huge things. Um, but I would say, anyone that's especially newer, but if you're running a firm right now and you're always just looking for action, was the guy next door to me ends the law firm and his, um, office assistant doing like five different jobs, basically left at the lake, 15 or 20 years. And he's like, I don't know what to do. And he's like, how am going to find someone?

And you know, he's looking for someone local to fill that spot and do everything she was doing. And it's like, he's not going to find that, but, and so now he's going all by himself. He's solo again. ⁓

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (37:02)
It's gonna turn gray or lose his hair very fast. It's a lot.

Kevin Daisey (37:05)
Well,

it's just the old way of doing it. And I know a lot of lawyers like better in that spot and you know, he could hire some virtual assistants, maybe, maybe bring someone back in the office. That's what he's used to get them to do basic stuff. And then, you know, get some virtual staff to fill it and the chief goes on vacation or get sick or he, or whoever. Guess what? You're not down. Like he's doing filing and paperwork and everything now because he's back to where he was 25 years ago by himself.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (37:32)
Look, I said to somebody the other day in the context of AI, you wouldn't give a first year associate or a secretary an assignment without any proper instructions.

and expect it to come back perfect. You shouldn't give it to AI that way either. So, you if you have a virtual team member and you want to give them something, try to explain it as best you can. We've got Loom to do videos. You've got Scribe to write SOPs. You you can just record something as a voice recording. There's so many ways to convey the information.

Kevin Daisey (37:59)
Mm-hmm.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (38:05)
and give them an opportunity to watch it again and read it again. So it's not just one and done. So you can do that. And then you got to give some time to teach. So go over the assignment with them. If it's not perfect, how else are they going to learn? You know, and in the end, if they're just cogs in your wheel, you're going to have folks that are going to leave and be unhappy. You got to hopefully give them something that they can walk away with, even if they do walk away and feel like I grew at that firm. I'm better because I was there.

and hopefully they leave with a good taste in their mouth if they leave at all.

Kevin Daisey (38:36)
Sure. Yeah. And I talk about this all the time. Like if you're not building a firm or setting yourself up to give folks a path and a vision that they see themselves growing, why would they stay? Right. ⁓ As the entrepreneurs, the folks at the front, our thing. We're excited about it. It's everything we think about all day, right? ⁓ Our staff, not so much, unless you create a place that they want to be at.

that they want to see grow, that they can have people underneath them that they can see grow, know, whatever their goals are. But if you're growing it, you're seeing a stagnant, you're not, you're not always trying to figure out new ways to do things. You're going to lose people for sure.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (39:23)
Look, Kevin, it's, it's, I mean, I'll give you just a silly, simple example. I got my team. got folks in Nicaragua. They're in El Salvador. got, ⁓ one of the new guys is in Colombia. They were, they want to know, Hey, when do we get, when do we get get rude shirts? So I shipped everybody's shirts. These are the most expensive shirts I've ever mailed, right? These $10 t-shirts are costing me hundreds of dollars. But if they're excited, they're part of the team. You would give it to them out of your, your merch room.

Kevin Daisey (39:27)
you

There you go.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (39:52)
Why shouldn't you give it to them just because they're somewhere else? And frankly, I didn't, was like, how many do you want? What do you want? And they were listed on every design. Okay. If you're excited to have them, they're yours. I do that with my, my local clients. I give out all my stuff for free because if you will wear my name and where my firm, cause you think it's a cool shirt or you like the branding, I would love it. It's free advertising. And I'm excited about it. Like you said, I hope you're excited about it. Yeah, man.

Kevin Daisey (40:18)
Absolutely. ⁓

I'm gonna need a shirt by the way, so.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (40:22)
You can

have any shirt you want. These haven't even come out yet. We have a, so I told you, would tell you. So I sponsor the local, I sponsor the local pro wrestling promotion, Wildcat Sports. And about three, four months into the sponsorship, they look at me like, Lee, would you like to be our onscreen general manager? I was like, I thought you'd never ask. But I go to the, I go to all the events. I set up a table. I make different merch. I give it out. meet a bunch of people.

You know, it's passionate fans about something that they love that I grew up loving. Somebody, you know, a guy, actually a vendor I didn't actually work with sent me that. And one day in the mail, I get this package. like, I've never had one these in my life, but this is pretty cool. I should show it in my office. But it's a fun way to meet people where they are. Right. Something that they love. And my mentality is if they want to hire somebody that they know, like, and trust, they've met me. They know that I love the thing that they love.

And so that's going to be the selling point that seems to work.

Kevin Daisey (41:20)
Yeah.

That's it right there. That's the connection, you know, and, ⁓ that's awesome. Yeah. I used to love wrestling back in the day. had friends that were really into it. Like so much of that in their forties today, they're still like, you know, all into it. So it's like.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (41:35)
So May

31st, I said I'm gonna bring these rudimania shirts out at our next event. ⁓ So any of those Wildcat Sports fans watching this, watching this show, I'll be there.

Kevin Daisey (41:46)
Let's go. Let's go. Yeah. I give me a shirt so I can, I can pimp it on the show and at conferences.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (41:52)
back, the back says, what are you going to do? What you're to do when we get rude with you? And it's got like a silhouette of, Hogan, with, but it says Rudin law on his bandana. So it's cool shirt. Yeah. You have to give me your size offline and I'll drop it in the mail to you.

Kevin Daisey (42:01)
That's awesome, dude.

Absolutely. Well, I like your comment too about like your virtual staff. ⁓ we do the same thing. So we do, we do kudo like awards with our core values every day through Slack. So I could give you like, you know, 10 points for passion and I say why, and it all calculates, but so each month we have a winner and they get a bonus cash bonus. And then every quarter we have a winner for each of our core values.

And we get like these, they're like three or $400 like glass balloon, like, you know, they weigh like 20 pound, um, trophies and we'll send them to anybody no matter where they're at. Colombia or we got to, uh, employ this really been with us for about four years now. He's in Ecuador. Um, so he's gotten one shipped to him. takes a while, but, um, yeah, we, we true everyone the same. So

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (43:00)
I love when customs grabs my t-shirts and is like, and you're going to pay an $80 VIG on top of the cost to ship the shirts. I'm like, guys, you know, I love you. I must love you if I'm spending this much money on some crappy t-shirts. Yeah, that's what it is. That's life.

Kevin Daisey (43:12)
Yeah, they don't make sense sometimes, but, ⁓ but yeah, man, that's

awesome. I love everything you're doing. Love the brands. Love the tips. a lot of great stuff. If you're starting a firm or if you're new at a firm or maybe you're just, you know, you're in your first couple of years and you're kind of like stuck, you know, and not sure what to do. ⁓ I think a lot of great information here in this episode and at least shared, reach out to Lee, connect with them. I'm sure he would love to chat. If you're an owner, I can connect you. If you want to talk to me, have any questions.

I'm happy to do that as well. So Lee, what's the best way for folks to connect with you?

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (43:48)
Anybody that wants to reach me my website's easy. It's getrude.com my email is Lee @ getrude.com You can call us at eight three three get rude, which is eight three three four three eight seven eight three three But seriously people were so generous with their time And their information when I was coming out that I feel like it's the right thing to do to pay it forward

So anybody that wants information and want to know how to hire virtual staff, what I'm doing and making merch and where I'm sourcing it from. I mean, I've explored it all. AI, tech, any way I can help. Happy to do it. Just drop me a note.

Kevin Daisey (44:23)
Do I appreciate it. And, uh, think we connected through Margarita, I believe. Yep. So Margarita, if you're out there listening, thanks for connecting us. We were on your, her mastermind call together. So yeah, thanks for connecting me. And, awesome everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in as always. Hope you've learned a lot from Lee Lee. You stay on with me for just a second while we get this all bloated and, uh, we'll see you all soon. Peace.

Lee Rudin (RUDIN LAW) (44:24)
and we're out of here.

We did. Yeah. Marketing boss.