Ari Kornhaber

Kevin Daisey (00:32)
What's up everyone. My fabulous lawyers out there got a really cool show today. I've Ari Kornhaber on the show and he just has such a unique background experience and things that he's done through necessity and all kinds of good stuff. So excited to have Ari on today and share some cool things. So first off Ari, thanks so much for joining me on the show.

Ari Kornhaber (00:54)
Kevin, it's truly my pleasure to be here. I was looking forward to this conversation.

Kevin Daisey (00:58)
Excellent. Yeah. Well, I certainly have some of the things that we're talking about, you know, for me as a business owner, multiple business owner, um, questions that I have and things that I'm interested in learning more about as far as what's happening in the industry. Some of the things you've done with your businesses, success, successes you've had, of course. Um, and again, um, just your background from where you started to what you're doing now, I think is really unique and cool. So.

I would just love to start out with just telling us a little bit about kind of your background, your story from like where you started to kind of where you sit now.

Ari Kornhaber (01:35)
I'll start with my professional career because I consider myself a recovering trial lawyer. I represented injured plaintiffs in personal injury, medical malpractice, and mass tort litigations. I did that for a number of years. I worked at two law firms in New York City. Gave me great experience. The second firm I was at made it clear on day one that you'll get great experience here, but you'll never make a partner. So I knew that going in.

And I knew that eventually I would get to a point in my professional career where I would want something more. And that happened. I came to this professional crossroads where I sought to do something a little more entrepreneurial. At the time, again, I was working and living in New York City and the thought of starting my own personal injury law firm in New York City and competing for the new business was not appealing to me. So I set out to do something more entrepreneurial and that's precisely what I did. So I left the practice of law.

and got into the business of financing the practice of law.

Kevin Daisey (02:32)
Yeah, so cool. Well, you're definitely on the right show. This is a show of entrepreneurs and folks that listen in. That's, that's kind of, if they're not one yet, you know, that's, that's kind of where they're headed. So, uh, excited that. So, basically what you do, you saw some, some challenges, um, with, you know, personal injury firms, contingency fee firms, uh, really with, you know, getting access to funds and working with like traditional banks. So.

You know, kind of tell me what that looked like and, obviously leading to Esquire Bank. and, so, know, how did you even come to that conclusion? And did you do that on your own? Did you partner up with other folks? So how, how'd that go down?

Ari Kornhaber (03:09)
So I mentioned moments ago that I worked at two law firms. The first law firm I was at was like most firms are today, self-financed. They were practicing law and using their attorney's fees to run their business, to pay for their case costs, and to grow. And the firm didn't really grow, but they did okay. The second firm I was at, they were more entrepreneurial and they were a pretty significant

catastrophic personal injury and one of the larger mass tort law firms in New York City at the time. What I found really interesting was that they were financing their case costs on their single event catastrophic personal injury cases. And I'll tell you a quick story. I remember the first time I settled one of the cases that was assigned to me and the client came in to sign the general release, presented the client with an itemized statement of all of the disbursements, the case costs.

and there was a line item for interest. And the client said, Mr. Kornhaber, what is this? You're charging me interest? And I literally had to excuse myself from the meeting. I went to the managing partner's office and I said, Jerry, we can't charge our clients interest. That's against the rules of ethics. He said, of course, we would never do that. He said, we have a line of credit with a finance company that we use to pay for our case costs. And the rules of ethics state that the interest that they charge us

we could pass on to our clients if we win or settle their cases. And I said, yeah, and I said, well, wait a minute, you guys just settled the Fen-Phen diet drug litigation for hundreds of millions of dollars. And he said, and you think we're gonna take our after-tax dollars and sink them into our case costs and just watch them depreciate? He said, that's not smart business. So I went back in, explained this to the client. She signed the release and took the check and went on her way.

Kevin Daisey (04:33)
Wow, okay.

Ari Kornhaber (04:53)
And it was an eye-opening experience. Like here was one of the most successful law firms in New York City, yet they were borrowing money from a specialty finance company at 18%. They couldn't get bank financing. So that was one of the things that really opened my eyes to the need that fast forward, Esquire Bank is trying to fill today.

Kevin Daisey (05:13)
That's super cool. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. You know, think about even smaller things within your personal life or, you know, me and my wife, you know, in short-term rentals, right? So it's like how much cash you want to dump into a property versus, you know, I just wanted to cashflow. I don't want to use all my cash. I'd rather borrow someone else's money. I don't, I don't want to all float all my cash. So as far, you know, put down as little as possible. That's what I'm looking for. So.

Ari Kornhaber (05:36)
Right, you know, at the end of the day, you want to invest your money, have that work for you. Look for smart debt. Not all debt is created equal, right? There's different rates, there's different terms, et cetera, covenants. It's one of the things I spent a lot of time doing is really educating contingency fee lawyers about the different types of financing that's out there. Not every law firm is right for Esquire Bank. So educating these lawyers who,

often admittedly aren't great at business. Most of them didn't get a JD-MBA. They didn't go to business school. They went to law school and they could pick up a file they've never seen before and try that case same day. But when you start talking to them about their P &L and their balance sheet and budgets and things like that, again, admittedly, that's not their strong suit. You know, the good news is a lot of these lawyers are hiring CFOs and C-suite executives and delegating these responsibilities because the modern day

contingency fee lawyer recognizes that they're not just practicing law, they're running a business and you could do both successfully.

Kevin Daisey (06:38)
100%. You're singing, we're on the same sheet of music for this show for sure. That's what it's all about. That's what I preach all the time. It's the business of law. Think like a CEO, not a lawyer. If you're in fact trying to build a successful firm that scales and grows, it's not stagnant. what question I would have, I know of a few firms right this second.

that are struggling, contingency fee firms have had, and because they just, they reached out and talked to me. They're concerned, they're struggling, the leads are not where they should have been, and they're sitting on cases and they're funding themselves right now. And so just interestingly, I've literally had three or four that I've talked to in the last week that are like, I don't even know how I'm going to make it six more months or more, more year.

As far as Esquire Bank's concerned, is that kinds of firms that you can help or are they kind of too far in a deep spot? Like what kinds of firms are you looking for? Ones that are prepped and prepared, building that kind of line of credit if you were with you or what would be the right type of firm that would reach out to you all?

Ari Kornhaber (07:41)
I'll take a step back. So Esquire Bank is a national commercial bank. Okay, that means we're regulated by the OCC. That means we have the same FDIC insurance as every other bank out there. We are a true bank. We capture deposits and we provide financing. Our niche is the legal community and within that community, all kinds of contingency fee law firms. And you asked me about sort of the origin story and I told you about the eye-opening experience, you know, the moral of that story is,

Kevin Daisey (07:43)
You

Ari Kornhaber (08:09)
Traditional banks don't understand the business of being a contingency fee law firm. It's not their fault. When you look at the business of being a contingency fee law firm, it's unlike almost every other business that exists. You're talking about these lawyers that are struggling. These are professionals who, if they're litigating cases, have to work on cases for, on average, two to three years before they generate revenue.

Therefore, compared to other businesses, their cash flow is extremely irregular. And if you're a lender, would you rather lend to a business that has regular, reliable cash flow or a business that has irregular, unpredictable cash flow? Obviously, predictable. So traditional banks would rather lend to businesses with predictable cash flow. That's number one. Number two, banks also could lend against assets. So they'll look at a business's

Kevin Daisey (08:50)
Yeah. Predictable.

Ari Kornhaber (09:03)
P &L and their balance sheet. If you look at a contingency fee law firm's balance sheet, you'll see that they have no assets on that balance sheet. So traditional banks are, well, again, can't lend to you. I can lend to these other 9 out of 10 businesses that have assets. But then they say, well, wait a minute. We also can lend against AR. We like to lend against AR that monetizes every 30, 60, 90 days, maybe 120 if they're progressive. Again.

Litigating law firms that are working on cases for two to three years There's no real AR there until they settle a case and then that case pays in two weeks or 30 days So that's not an opportunity. So that's three. Number four asset-based lending these banks can go into many other businesses and go into their warehouse and touch and feel their Inventory and understand that it has value the number of units times the average price per unit and they could do inventory financing

you look at a contingency fee law firm, their inventory are the cases that they're working on. So by their very definition, their inventory, these cases may be worth zero or may be worth some sum of money years from now. Traditional banks again would say, for those four reasons, I choose not to lend to contingency fee law firms when every other business out there either has cashflow, assets on their balance sheet, AOR or inventory.

Traditional banks conclude that there's just too much actual credit risk lending money to contingency fee law firms. Again, we're a bank and we feel very differently because we took the time to understand the business of being a contingency fee law firm and I've walked in the shoes of those trialers. Okay? We feel that the risk associated with lending money to these firms is not an actual credit risk. It's a perceived credit risk that we've named a duration risk.

because quality trial lawyers are selective in terms of the cases that they elect to work on for obvious reasons. And those cases monetize over 95, 98 % of the time. So it's not a matter of if, it's only a matter of when. So if you start there, it allows Esquire Bank to do what virtually no other banks are doing in a substantial way on a national basis, which is lend

Kevin Daisey (10:49)
Hmm.

Ari Kornhaber (11:16)
into the gaps of cash flow, which is to be an asset-based lender. We are an asset-based lender. We lend against two assets. They're both contingent assets. One, the future potential projected attorney's fees and the reimbursable case costs. We've separated those two assets into separate asset classes because the future revenue, the future fees will be the law firm's revenue.

the case costs that these lawyers expend and lay out, those get repaid by the clients out of the client's share of every settlement. So by separating the two, it allows us to make more capital available to the law firms that qualify. So back to your question, these three law firms that are struggling, with a very short business conversation, we could determine whether or not they may qualify for one of our programs.

We have multiple programs and if you wanna hear about some of those, I'm happy to get into them, but I know I just gave a very long answer to a short question, so I think it's to take a breath and let you comment or ask a follow-up question.

Kevin Daisey (12:10)
Right.

No, I, I appreciate that. I think that was, that's one of the ones to hear. And I think that's very helpful for anyone listening. and it all makes sense that why, like my personal bank here in my regional area, great relationship with them. There's no way they would lend any money to, someone like that. Right. and, they're pretty limited anyway. It's, it's hard to get them to lend you much. And I have a very predictable cashflow business. so.

That helps a lot and I appreciate that. I'm going to definitely refer you to those firms. Hopefully they get some help and they will be in a better spot or at least have the conversation to see what their options are. So anyone listening, of course, check out Squire Bank. All right, this is not something that I really had any idea of and I talked to lawyers all day long. So it's news to me. Hopefully a lot of people listening, it's news to them and they can find it helpful.

Array Digital (13:10)
Thank you for tuning into the show today. I have taken things to the next level and I've started the Managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity, and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group. Spots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and we can set up a one-on-one call to make sure it's a fit.

Now back to the show.

Kevin Daisey (13:37)
I wanted to kind of transition to, because this is something I hear about often and speak about often. I've had some other folks on here, but some of the changes that are, you know, a common, I know you have a lot of knowledge on law firm ownership and some of the things that are happening there. PE backed firms. I heard the other day was PE almost loaning money to firms because they can't technically have equity.

like say in my state of Virginia and things like that. And I thought that was interesting, almost like they're learning and getting interest payments. So what do you know about those kinds of things? What's your knowledge of what's happening out there?

Ari Kornhaber (14:10)
It's a great question. And in fact, private equity can get involved with law firms in Virginia. This is something that is fairly new, but something that I am now having business conversations about regularly, multiple times a week. And I think it stems from what happened in Arizona. Everyone knows, or I bet a lot of listeners today know, that in Arizona, you could be a non-lawyer and own a piece of a law firm.

and share an attorney's fees through the ABS program, the alternative business structure. You have to apply and go through a whole process. There are about 162 ABS law firms now, about 65 of them are personal injury class action or mass tort, the most. But what's newer is where law firms are creating MSOs, master servicing organizations.

above their law firms. Because if you look at everything that a contingency fee law firm does, only about 5 % of it is actually legal work and practicing law. The rest of it is not legal work. So what these lawyers and law firms are doing is all of the non-legal work, having all of that business being performed out of the service organization, which sits above the law firm.

the MSO can be owned by one of the partners in the law firm and non lawyers So that invites non lawyer ownership that invites private equity into the service organization that sits above the law firm So this creates incredible opportunities for lawyers investors Everything that's coming out of Arizona without having to go through that process and in fact

It addresses succession planning and estate planning issues. Let me give you why that's the case.

Kevin Daisey (15:53)
I'm all ears man, this is awesome.

Ari Kornhaber (15:55)
I have a client in Texas. He is the majority owner of a very large personal injury law firm. He deposits with Esquire Bank, his law firm borrows from Esquire Bank. He is growing, he's acquiring other law firms. It's a large operation at this point.

His accountant said to him, do you know that if God forbid you get hit by a bus tomorrow, you are doing your family a major disservice because you don't have any other lawyers in the family. So they cannot inherit your law firm. They can't run and own your law firm. They're not lawyers. So what he did was created the MSO that sits above his law firm and 95 % of what the law firm does is in there.

Now, God forbid he gets hit by a bus, his adult son, who's a business person, can inherit the MSO, those aspects of the business, the HR, the accounting, the marketing, again, all the other things that aren't practicing law, and can at least deal with the estate planning issues. So it comes with tax ramifications and all of that. So I would bet that the majority of our listeners today do not have well-thought-out documented succession plans.

So that's something that needs attention and now with the MSO opportunity, it again creates really interesting business opportunities stemming out of the practice of law.

Kevin Daisey (17:12)
That's awesome. That's huge. I've not heard of that. I pride myself on being in the know for a lot of things and PE and things like that. That's not something I've heard of. It makes a lot of sense.

Ari Kornhaber (17:22)
Well, I'm sure you heard

about it in the medical industry or the dental industry. You have all of these little dental shops opening up on the shopping centers. Private equity has come in and taken over dental practices and medical practices. And what they do is they roll them all up into the service organization and create efficiencies and scale, et cetera. So we have a looking glass.

Kevin Daisey (17:41)
So I'm off.

Ari Kornhaber (17:47)
We know what's going to happen in the legal industry. It's just starting now with ABS and other states looking at legislation, but certainly the MSO structure is there.

Kevin Daisey (17:57)
I mean, it makes sense. mean, say you have a law firm, none of your family is a lawyer. You have nothing to leave behind unless. Yeah. mean, that, that makes a ton of sense. I got lawyers that kind of, I mean like, Hey, I don't want to put my name on the firm because I can't sell it if it's my name on the firm. Not necessarily true, but, you know, they are looking for creative ways to be able to exit somehow. and they're typically thinking to sell it to another lawyer or to their staff. And whatever

opportunities that they have. That's really interesting stuff. I actually have a lawyer that I've met out of Texas, he was the same guy. But he was doing interesting things like even having his domain for his website in a trust that the family had access to and things like that, things that they could own and still have as an asset since they couldn't technically own the firm.

some creative things I've heard out there. But this makes a lot of sense. is, this is awesome. It's news to me for sure.

Ari Kornhaber (18:49)
Yeah, look, at the end of the day, there's a lot of consolidation going on in the legal contingency fee law practice industry, and it's happening for a variety of reasons. Number one, there are a lot of older attorneys who are starting to retire without a succession plan, and they want to be able to monetize what they built. They have a successful practice. They have referral sources.

They have a brand that resonates in their community. It's brand equity to your point. What we're seeing are some younger attorneys who are embracing legal technology and financing, coming up and acquiring some of these other firms and saying to the senior lawyer, hey, why don't you stay on for the next five years? I'm going to pay you today so you could take some chips off the table. I want you to stay on to

continue to create the commercials and the billboards so that your referral sources continue to refer the cases. I'll pay you a lump sum today. You'll share in the fees on the cases that exist in the firm today. And then after five years, you could sail off into the sunset and I'm gonna continue to run your firm and keep your baby and your brand going. Beyond that, that acquiring law firm is actually, again, creating the MSO and then

Kevin Daisey (20:00)
Smart.

Ari Kornhaber (20:05)
acquiring multiple law firms and rolling up the operations into the MSO, right? You don't necessarily need three CFOs, three bookkeepers, multiple marketing companies working for three law firms, a lot of ways to create efficiencies there. that's what, look, that's what private equity is doing through ABS and MSOs. They've approached a number of my clients. I've seen the offers.

private equity is offering between 20 to 50%, you know, to buy 20 to 50 % of the law firm. And these lawyers are saying to me, I'm not ready to bring in private equity as a partner. I built this myself. I wanna continue to do this, but it's opened my eyes and maybe I would like to do this in a number of years. So instead, I'd like to continue to reinvest in my law firm, continue to grow it, and whatever they're offering me today will be a multiple.

Kevin Daisey (20:52)
Be worth more.

Ari Kornhaber (20:55)
in three or five years. If they're offering me some multiple of my EBITDA, let me grow my EBITDA and get a bigger payday three, five years from now.

Kevin Daisey (21:03)
Yeah. If you're looking to sell you three to five years to plan to get the biggest value for sure. Keep growing. Um, we've so we've done that, uh, with my, my company actually, uh, have multiple agencies. And, uh, my primary is array digital. will focus on law firms, but we, have a, we call it a shared service company. All the admin HR financing, everything is centralized and.

Each of my agencies use the same central team and we're even centralizing softwares, task management systems, all that, all at this one entity. If we want to start a third or fourth or fifth, that company, the main company can handle everything. No redundancy. mean, yeah. So it's kind of similar to what you're talking about. And through a private equity company, we'll look a lot more valuable if we ever were to sell.

Ari Kornhaber (21:48)
Yeah, very.

Kevin Daisey (21:52)
We have the shared service company, we have the niche industry agencies, and we have more of a platform style company, if you will. So that's interesting. I never heard about.

Ari Kornhaber (22:01)
Glad

I got on your program before you set a private equity.

Kevin Daisey (22:03)
Yeah. Well, it's, it's, I'd never heard that with the law firm structure. That makes a ton of sense. And so, yeah, with the law firm, I mean, they bring us on, we're doing marketing, right? there's intake, there's follow-up, there's client communications. Most of, we're in a law firm has nothing to do, like you're saying with legal services. Some cases might sit for a long time and it's just communication with the client, follow-up.

getting reviews, getting referrals, you know, so a lot of that stuff is the lifeblood of the firm. Um, yeah. So that makes a ton of sense to centralize that. So really cool stuff.

Ari Kornhaber (22:30)
You got it.

You know,

some lawyers say to me, what can I do today to start running a more profitable liquid law firm so that one day maybe the private equity discussion or MSO discussion becomes a reality? And, you know, I mentioned it before that financing of case costs is a unique opportunity that only contingency fee lawyers have. The rules of ethics state that if you have specific language in the original retainer agreement,

that discloses to your client the law firm's ability to finance the case costs. And if and only if you settle or win the case, then the finance charges can be passed through to the client. You know, from a business perspective, that's like getting an interest-free loan for your case costs. What an incredible opportunity. You know, it was only five years ago that it was COVID and the government rolled out PPP loans. And again, most...

Kevin Daisey (23:16)
That's huge.

Mm-hmm.

Ari Kornhaber (23:29)
Law firms are self-financed, but almost all of them took a PPP loan. Why? They read the rules and said, if I follow the rules, I don't have to repay principal or interest. Well, case cost financing is very similar. If you follow the rules, your clients pay the interest out of their share of the settlement, and it's not expensive. It doesn't get in your way of settling the case. So again, become educated about this. Learn. We have the sample retainer language. We have the ethics opinions.

Kevin Daisey (23:39)
Why not?

Ari Kornhaber (23:56)
that we'd like to share with anyone who's interested. And then we also provide the financing and provide the back office support, the tracking of every case. We do the accounting of the interest that accrues on each disbursement as it's occurring. So it's seamless, easy, and makes tremendous business sense.

Kevin Daisey (24:14)
No, it really does. think when me, me and Ari kind of always get together with my guest prior to just kind of meet, talk and discuss. And I was telling him, I think of a workshop that I did in, was entrepreneurs organization, which is a mastermind kind of group worldwide. And one of the exercises they brought in a speaker kind of similar to you, like a, someone in finance and we did exercise and the program was called like, growth through debt.

or something like that. And it was basically like, we did the exercise of what are the people that I'd need to hire, softwares that I would need, things that I would need to grow to whatever your goal is. So yeah, I want to be from 1 million to 5 million. Cool. Write down all the things you would need to probably get to 5 million. And we did that. And then they said, okay, well, what if you could get all those things today? Instead of waiting five years,

You get there today. And it was kind of like this aha moment of like, holy crap. So they're basically, you can get an SBA loan or you can get financing or whatever to hire the lawyers, hire the staff, build the systems, get the great intake systems and team. Do it now instead of waiting. So you want to get more multiples, increase your EBITDA. Why use your own money, right? Get there today and scale faster. So.

That's what made you made me think of that when we were talking before. it's interesting. What you don't know, you don't know, right?

Ari Kornhaber (25:27)
Yeah, and you know, that's right. And

we don't know a lot, right? We learn from our clients. We actually create case studies when we see our clients growing exponentially. We dive into the data, show it back to them. And what's really interesting, we just did a study on about hundred law firms that have been borrowing money from us for at least five years or over the last five years. And those law firms have a CAGR, a compounded annual growth rate

of 15 % over five years. That is incremental sustainable growth across a hundred law firms, number one. Number two, like I said, we learned from our law firms. There was one law firm that when I met them, they were self-financed. They had millions of dollars out in case costs. They had a big working capital line of credit. I explained the value of the case cost line of credit where you could pass it through and the managing partner said, so if I change my retainer agreement,

over the years, you're going to give me a multimillion dollar case cost line of credit. I said, absolutely. If you think about it, your case costs are a fraction of the value of these cases, a fraction of what your fees are going to be. And we did that. And over time, those cases resolved and the new cases were retained with the new retainer agreement. Now they're financing their case costs on their catastrophic personal injury cases. And one of these lawyers sat down for a video testimonial because

They literally said it was life changing. The millions of dollars that was sitting in their cases went back to the partners. When it went back to the partners, it was not a taxable event. They already earned their fees and paid those taxes. It was the after-tax dollars that was sitting in their cases in case costs. So when it went back to them, it was just found money, not taxable. But what I learned was one of the partners said what they realized with their lawyers,

were working on too many cases. So when they freed up these dollars that were locked up in their cases and case costs, they went out and hired two more trial lawyers and took cases away from all their existing lawyers and gave them these two new lawyers. They said all of their cases were resolving faster, their clients were happier, they were generating more revenue, getting better reviews. They said it was one of the greatest things and I said, you know, I never realized that.

the economic benefits of case cost financing are clear. But some of these other benefits are not so obvious and that's one of them.

Kevin Daisey (27:50)
That's awesome. I mean, yeah, you're, you're trying to have just a handful of lawyers and, everyone's got to be, you ever worked cases or dragging, not moving forward. That makes a lot of sense. Be more efficient. Seems like way more efficiency out of a couple of extra lawyers taking the load, but that costs more money.

Ari Kornhaber (28:04)
Or, you know, exactly,

or get some new technology, new case management system, new intake software with AI, new medical record retrieval with AI. I mean, there are so many opportunities today that didn't exist literally three years ago, but it takes capital. And that's sort of the theme of being a contingency fee law firm is a capital intensive business. need capital to run the business, pay your employees and keep the lights on.

If you're litigating, need capital to pay your experts to be able to get your clients full value. And if you want to grow, that takes capital. So that's why if you're self-financed, it's often the growth that's stunted because they got to keep the lights on. They got to pay for the case costs. But if they look at, again, the money that's sitting in their cases and case costs, if they go from being self-financed to financing that, you unlock your after-tax dollars to invest in the legal tech or the hiring. just, it makes so much sense. Or just invest it personally.

and let your after-tax dollars do something accretive instead of depreciating in your cases.

Kevin Daisey (29:06)
No, it's awesome. It makes a lot of sense to me. another thing that I fear recently, I had someone on the show and they get nursing home cases. They, but they just refer them out because they can't afford to have someone that specializes in that, which is pretty specialized and they cost too much to sit there if they don't have enough cases. And so, you know, they just farm it out and there's lots of like types of cases like that.

They just refer out and they get a referral fee. But the problem I hear is we don't want to carry the cost of that expensive case.

Ari Kornhaber (29:36)
Yeah, there are ways to solve for that. If you really look at the economics of referring the case out versus getting a bank line of credit, the bank line of credit is less expensive than giving away 50 % or whatever the referral fee is to the handling attorney. And by the way, a lot of this, Kevin, it's just math. So when we have these business conversations with the attorneys, we break it down to math and we show them the numbers and show them over time what

costs if you're applying the interest or the opportunity cost etc. And if the cost of the debt is less than the return on the investment, then it's a creative and we have ways to show that.

Kevin Daisey (30:16)
It's awesome, I love it. Really cool stuff you shared on the show today. I know some hoots news to me. I'm sure there's attorneys that are listening that are like, yeah, I know that. But, you know, we have just so many listeners that are just starting firms, have smaller firms, or maybe they've been a few years in business. And they're up against this struggle right out the gate going, okay, how do I make it six months or a year or two years? And they're great lawyers, but we know that's not gonna cut it.

You have to invest in marketing, you have to invest in intake, you have to invest in these things. And so, they're just takes so much longer to get to a place where they have any real growth. So, it's a great option. I would definitely call Ari and reach out to him. Ari, what's the best way for folks to connect with you and reach out if they have questions?

Ari Kornhaber (30:57)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, if anyone goes to our website, www.esquirebank.com, because I know you have listeners all over the country, you can literally enter information depending on where you are in the United States. We have business development officers, managing directors who will reach right out to you and schedule a virtual meeting or an in-person meeting and have the business conversation with you. You can also reach me on that website. You can find me on LinkedIn, Ari Kornhaber, Kornhaber's with a K.

apkornhaber@esqbank.com. We'll also share with you, you know, after this interview some other ways to get a hold of me and look at the end of the day, I would welcome the opportunity to have as many business conversations with as many of your listeners that are out there. We have small loan programs, we have asset-based lending and all kinds of interesting programs in the middle. So I really appreciate the opportunity to have the conversation with you today. Thank you.

Kevin Daisey (31:50)
Hey

Ari, I appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for the offer to talk to folks that are out there to have questions or looking for help. And yeah, if anyone is listening, you want it direct connection or contact, you can't find them or you can't spell his name. Let me know, ping me, DM me, email me, and I'll make sure that the connection is made. So thank you so much for short, you know, for joining me on the show today. Cool stuff. Excited to talk to you again about more of this stuff in the future. Yeah.

Ari Kornhaber (32:14)
Do it again sometime.

Kevin Daisey (32:15)
Everyone,

Ari Kornhaber (32:15)
Thanks, Cap.

Kevin Daisey (32:16)
thank you so much for tuning in as always, and we'll see you on the next episode. Goodbye