Michael Cowen

Kevin Daisey (00:31)
What's up everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for tuning in as always to listen to me jabber on, but hopefully my guests bring some real value to you. So I just appreciate you coming on to listen and learn. I learn right alongside of you all and, excited to have Michael Cowen on the show today. He is an expert in his field. He brings a lot of knowledge. He has a podcast. He is well known.

And he's actually been on the podcast a little while back, but I'm to have him back on. Delisi Friday, a good friend of mine, used to work with Michael. So we have that connection there. They both say great things about each other. Just both podcast guests as well. So Michael, welcome to the show.

Michael Cowen (01:11)
Thank you for having me.

Kevin Daisey (01:12)
Yeah, man. So you're out of Texas. know, for those that may not know you, you know, got a lot of firms that that might just be starting out, just going their own, just exploring the world out there to get advice on how to start their firms, run their firms. Let's just say they don't know you. Tell us a little bit about your background and your firm and your specialty.

Michael Cowen (01:30)
Sure. Well, I'm from a small town on the Texas- Mexico border, Brownsville, Texas. And while I did not intend on starting my own firm back in 1999, the boss I went to go work for just quit with three weeks notice. I ended up with my own law firm, uh, three years out of school with, with no clue what I was doing. And over the years have clawed my way up, uh, learned a lot of things, the hard way learned a lot of things from working with people that taught me.

and shared with me and you know build up a pretty nice firm. I have one firm in Texas with 10 lawyers and another one in New Mexico with a partner and another lawyer there and do personal injury work mainly trucking and company vehicle litigation but we do some other kinds of PI work.

Kevin Daisey (02:12)
That's awesome. And then trucking is so specialized and complex. So, you know, saying you do that versus, know, is, uh, it's just different than, you know, yeah. I just had  Jordan Jones on the show.

Michael Cowen (02:22)
It's so fun.

Jordan's a great friend. Actually. I was texting with him last night. I'm to have him on my podcast and, ⁓ but he is, he is brilliant. I love Jordan.

Kevin Daisey (02:31)
Awesome. You know, he's awesome. And

yeah, he's really, and just, you know, he was telling me the complexities and some of the, you know, the layers within some, within the trucking cases that you really have to understand to just take a trucking case if you're just a normal, you know, personal injury attorney. So that was eye opening for me, as a non-attorney, you know, so, so great stuff. So obviously you got.

You got dropped into owning your own firm. So you had to make the best of it. And of course you've done an amazing job growing your firm and networking and working with others. So that's what this podcast is all about. course. You know, what is, what is it kind of, you know, been like, cause obviously you're still active. You're, actively trying cases. What is that like, you know, at your level, managing that managing the firm.

and how you kind of, I guess, set that up for yourself to be rewarding and successful at the same time.

Michael Cowen (03:25)
Yeah, there's a great tension in there because I love trying cases. I get more joy out of trying cases than anything else I do. So I don't want to quit trying cases. But once you get more than a couple of lawyers, you have to also manage and mentor the other lawyers who work for you. And so there's a couple of things that I've done is one, I've hired other people who love doing the things that I'm not very good at. So a lot of the day to day

management, the getting after people, the keeping track of what people are doing. I'm 99 % out of that. Unless there's like a really delicate conversation that needs to be had with a lawyer, I'm pretty much not involved in that kind of day-to-day ultra detailed management. I am really involved in coaching strategy, meeting with people to come up with ideas, meeting with people about just kind how they're doing at the firm, how we can better support them. But I'm not as involved in the day-to-day management. And definitely when we get outside the lawyers, I have very little involvement.

at this point in my career in managing the rest of the firm's business, which is really good because I sucked at it. I somehow survived because I was a good enough lawyer to make enough money to make up for all my other failings. So I didn't necessarily pocket very much of that money, but I would just make really bad business decisions, run a bad business, and then hit a big case and somehow get out of the hole that I dug for myself. But I now am blessed enough to

practice with really good people, both lawyers and non-lawyers, to put a team together that knows someone's good at each aspect of what we need to do to both run a law firm and run a business.

Kevin Daisey (04:51)
That's, love that. You know, knowing where you want to be and what you want to do, I think it's important. Cause if you want to be a lawyer, cause you love it. Or someone ended up saying, you know, that's, I didn't love it like I thought. want to run a business. I'd rather be a business owner.

Michael Cowen (05:03)
And there's nothing wrong with it. That's one thing I really had to learn is, know, I almost had like where lawyers were not business people were craft people, you know, it's not about the money. And it's not just about the money, but it's sure easier to make the right decision when you have money in the actually. And it's easier to dedicate whatever resources you need to your client's case when you have money in the bank and to say no to a mediocre settlement offer when you have money in the bank.

So it is, to do the right things, you do need to have some financial resources behind you. But you don't start off with that. so I've been blessed. I wasn't always blessed like that. I know other people, though, that are really, really good at running the business part, and they don't want to try cases. And I'll be honest with you, like 20 years ago, I kind looked down on those people. And now I actually look up to them, because a lot of them, they're providing incredible customer service. They're brilliant marketers.

Their gift isn't trying cases and are there love and maybe some of them are actually good at it They just don't love it. And so as I've gotten more mature I've found that you know, we each have gifts and we need to gravitate in our practice towards You know what brings us joy that also serves our clients that also makes us money

Kevin Daisey (06:11)
Thank you for tuning into the show today. I have taken things to the next level and I've started the Managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity, and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group. Spots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and we can set up a one-on-one call to make sure it's a fit.

Now back to the show.

Kevin Daisey (06:39)
Man, I love a lot of what you just said. So one, you started out with you delegated, you know, the things you don't like to do, things you're not good at, get those off your plate. You shouldn't be doing them. you have to start there, but you don't want to continue there. So keeping a tally on those things. Hey, what am I doing? That shouldn't be doing. the other thing too, is hire really great people and don't, don't skimp on worrying about saving a buck, right? You're, you're bringing in really good people that are really experienced.

And honestly, a lot of mistakes that were made in my business was bringing in really junior people because I could pay them a low salary and we hopefully would train them and they could figure it out. The best decisions I've ever made is like bringing in the best people and giving them more than they expected. Cause we want, we want you to be here to be excited about this, to be passionate about this.

Michael Cowen (07:22)
example that applies to your business and like you know 20 years ago you know I'm wanting to market my firm and I don't want to spend a ton of money I don't have a ton of money so I hired a local person that had worked for a local non-legal marketing agency had some ideas all of which failed wasted all that money. had I just hired someone like you that knew what they were doing I would have had so much more success so much more quickly with less wasted money

Kevin Daisey (07:47)
Yeah. I mean, we've done it time and time again. we have over 50 employees, and we, we've been a business for, well, I've been in business for over 20 some years, but, in the legal field, probably eight, seven or eight years. So, but every time, you know, and now we just don't do it. We just know, and we go for that best person that we think is the best cultural fit that maybe not even be as skilled, but just they get it and they, want to be here and we know they're going to.

take care of us. And then bringing in people like Delisi, consultants, CFOs, fractional. The resources are out there and you gotta lean on people to help you out with all these things.

Michael Cowen (08:22)
And I think that's a really important part too, is that you can't necessarily, like 20 years ago, I couldn't have afforded some of the people that work with me now. But they also, like when Delisi came to work with us, she didn't have any experience at legal marketing, but she was brilliant. She had the right personality for it. She got along with lawyers really well, and she really helped us build our business. And now she's moved on and built her own business.

Kevin Daisey (08:37)
Yeah.

Michael Cowen (08:49)
And I'm so proud of her and so happy for her. But it's just, you you got to find the right people. And I'll be honest, when I started, I was having to do my own QuickBooks. When I started, I was having to sometimes, you know, sweep my own floor, scan my own documents. Back then, actually, we didn't scan. We filed the paper away. I mean, you know, when you're just getting started, you don't have that choice. But as you grow, as you start to get more successful, then you really have to look at, you know, what are the things that I can do better than other people that actually add value?

and that bring me joy. And if all three are not true, then you should find someone else to do them as you can. And then you prioritize, know, just like what brings the most bang for the buck now? What should I get out of now where I can spend my time doing something more high value or more joyful?

Kevin Daisey (09:19)
I like that.

Yeah, I love that. Love that. It's a great exercise to kind of like assess all that. And, you know, there's obviously some great books out there, buy back your time and other ones like where you assess your, what you do for two weeks and write it all down and go, what, why am I doing this? And, and get someone else to look at it. Hey, Michael, why the heck are you running to the post office? Or I have a young lawyer that's a client of mine that's like, yeah, I've been calling the court all day, all morning, spent my whole morning just to let them know.

And there are criminal defense that my client is in jail and I can come down if I need to. He's like, it took him like three hours, four hours of my morning. Like, man, what are you doing? Like you could have a VA, an assistant. And he just didn't know that that's even possible because he's like, well, well, I have to call them. No, you don't. You can have someone else do that. You know, and so.

Michael Cowen (10:11)
It's a mindset thing. Like it took me a long time to think

that, okay, if I need to go get my oil changed, that's two, three hours out of my time, out of my day. If you look at what I can, the value I can create per hour working on a trucking wrongful death case to take three hours out of that, because I feel like, who am I to go send someone? I can go pay somebody 20, 25 bucks an hour to drive my car to the dealership and get the oil changed and come back. They're thrilled to do it.

They're thrilled to get out the office and drive a car back and forth. And so once I learned that I could do those things, then one, now I have a cleaner, better maintained car. But two, I have more time and more money left in the bank. And three, there's somebody that instead of sitting there doing boring work in the office paperwork, they get to go drive a nice car to the dealership and back and play on their phone while the car's getting worked on. It's a win-win-win.

Kevin Daisey (10:56)
Yeah.

And you can say, Hey, you're, you're adding value to this firm by giving Michael three hours to work on important cases, you know? And so it aligns, it aligns with the vision and the value of the firm, even though it's just going to get an oil change.

Michael Cowen (11:04)
And there's people that love doing that.

Yeah, but

it but again, it was just either my old wouldn't get changed or I would take three hours out during the workday when I'm not working on the case and then I end up like working late at night instead of hanging out with my kids. Because I felt too guilty to pay somebody a nominal amount of money to go do a task force.

Kevin Daisey (11:25)
About a year and a half ago or so, I've always mowed my lawn. and just say, I'll just move along and keep doing it. I'm not paying someone to do that. About a year or so ago, I bought a lawn tractor and all new equipment, know, all brand new riding lawnmower of a pretty good size yard. And then at some point, before the spring hit here in Virginia, I was like, I either got to spend my weekends, you know, mowing the lawn takes about three or four hours, or I got to.

do it in evening or I have to do it during the day or whatever. And I just, my tractor sat there all year, brand new. And I just hired someone to come do it. Now I come home, it's done. I feel more relaxed. I don't have to worry about a Saturday or Sunday. I got kids. And so just doing those things where you feel like you should be doing them. Cause you just seem like an ass if you don't, but it's like, no, I shouldn't be doing that. It doesn't make any sense.

Michael Cowen (12:09)
The other big challenge for me is learning that other people can do things differently than the way I would do them. But if the result is good enough, then it's okay. And I learned that in trial. was, I have a brilliant, trial partner, Malorie Peacock. We, we try a lot of cases together and when she was up and coming, I mean, she would be examining a witness, for example, or make an argument to court. And I'd be like, that's not the way I would do it. And I'd be really tense about it. And then I'd see that she got there. And if she was trying to imitate me, she's not me. We're very different people.

It would not have worked, but she got there her way and she made all the points I would have made. She just made them and she got there in a different way that was better for her style and her personality. And then when I saw her succeed, it kind of taught me the lesson that, you know, give someone a chance to do it their way. You know, they may not mow the yard in exactly the same pattern or technique you would have done, but if the grass gets cut and they don't run over the hedges, you know, let them do it.

Kevin Daisey (12:59)
Exactly. And it's, just to use that as an example, if I were to sit there with the lawn people and watch them, I'd be like, but you know, what are you doing? But I'm not, I'm not even there. I come home, it's done. I might see the ring camera go off because they're, riding around, but you just got to let it go, right? You just got to step away and say, Hey, this is saving me time. And, you know, just let them do it and get it done. Just like with your kids, they're going to mess up, you know, with everything. It just got put them.

You know, that'll fail sometimes too, yeah?

Michael Cowen (13:25)
My wife and I are always vigorously debating that issue. Maybe how you sometimes, I mean, there's safety related. There's some big things where you have to jump in, but a lot of times, you know, you need to let somebody do a, a recoverable fail so that they can learn.

Kevin Daisey (13:39)
Absolutely, absolutely. Or they're never going to learn if they're always getting the direction or the guard rails, right? So, yeah. I thought my son had some assignments that he didn't turn in. My wife's like, we're gonna make a list of them, we're gonna tell the teacher, say hey, let him, you know, let the teacher tell him. And then he knows the consequences when he doesn't get it done. So, yeah, that's awesome stuff. Tell me a little bit more about

I know you work with a lot of other firms, if I'm not correct, right?

Michael Cowen (14:05)
Yes, in 99 %

of our cases, another firm has a case that bring us into co-counsel and we work on, you know, most of time we do 99 % of the work, but sometimes they want to work with us. Either way, we're happy to have the work and it's fun to work with other lawyers.

Kevin Daisey (14:18)
And so last time I talked to Michael, it's like, you he doesn't, he wouldn't hire a marketing agency like me to go after, the clients, the consumers. he's working with other firms that bring him in, bring his teams in, which I love that model. and so you're the expert set trial. They bring you in when they have a case, they can't handle themselves. Correct.

Michael Cowen (14:36)
That's most of it. Although we are starting to market directly to the public now. I think the business model is changing. I think that the referral model will last enough for I could retire. But I'm trying to build a firm that will last beyond my retirement because I love the people I work with. And now I have a son that's a junior in college that says he wants to go to law school. But the other one is I've noticed that there's a lot of consolidation in the market.

A lot of the, used to be the big firms did TV and billboards and they didn't do a lot of digital. And there was a lot of space for between the community relations marketing, the passing your card and into the digital space for smaller firms to get a lot. And it used to be the really big firms also didn't do a lot of litigation. They would refer out their bigger litigation. Now I'm seeing a lot of like the very biggest of the big firms are putting this millions and millions into the digital marketing.

a lot of people in the middle are going to work for the bigger firms doing their litigation for them, but they're not referring out as much. And so I think that while we still have the vast majority of our cases from referral and our best cases are from referral, we have added a direct to consumer component because the market's changing. And I don't think it's a good idea to not accept reality and change with it.

Kevin Daisey (15:48)
That's massive in business, especially the bigger you get. Realizing what's happening, making changes, accepting that there's going to be change and getting it.

Michael Cowen (15:56)
Yeah. And there's going to be change

now. mean, we're, are going from asking Google to asking an AI, ChatGPT or, or other what lawyer, you know, what the lawyers are. And so, you know, I'm sure in your, on your side, there's like, okay, well, Google was changing their algorithm so quickly. I mean, you ought to be constantly on top of it. And, know, I think it's going to be the same basic formula, you know, what the search engine models look for is very similar to what the AI model seemed to look for.

Kevin Daisey (16:13)
You

Michael Cowen (16:23)
But it is constantly changing. And I think it's gotten to the point where I don't think a lawyer, I don't think you can practice law and keep up with it yourself and try to do your own digital marketing at this point. mean, maybe, maybe, maybe do some TikTok videos, but frankly, if you don't get anyone to actually watch them, how much are they gonna convert? I really do think we're at an age.

Kevin Daisey (16:40)
you

Michael Cowen (16:46)
where you're now going with such sophisticated competition. Now, not every consumer wants the biggest law firm. So there's still opportunities. But I think that finding someone that knows how to market digitally is critical, because even the referral-based marketing, if you want to get more than a certain size. And the other problem with referral-based marketing is that you tend to become very dependent on a small number of marketing sources. So if their sources dry up,

or God forbid someone else goes takes them out to dinner and takes them away from you. You you can lose a massive amount of your business from just one customer. I don't know if you read any of the Mike Morse fireproof book or anything like that but.

Kevin Daisey (17:15)
Yeah.

I know

Mike, I haven't read his book. Actually, I know you said his fireproof conference.

Michael Cowen (17:28)
Yeah, he got into direct to

consumer because he got like 80 % of his cases from one lawyer and that lawyer told him one day, I'm not going to refer cases anymore. And so, you know, massive. And so I think that even for those of us that are blessed to get enough cases on referral, I think the market is changing and we have to adapt with the times and, and having invested in a firm in New Mexico that does TV, digital radio, billboards, everything digital is where it's at. I mean, your best bang for the buck is going to be on the digital.

Kevin Daisey (17:56)
Well, I know a guy that does that. No, well, to your point, it's always changing and we're on our toes every day. talking internally, like, you know, what are we seeing and what's going on? Yeah. Now we track perplexity, ChatGPT all the AI platforms and Google, which is still a big majority. ⁓ and so now it's just, I've been telling people like, I don't call it SEO.

Michael Cowen (18:13)
Absolutely.

Kevin Daisey (18:18)
search engine optimization is search everywhere optimization. It's how do you show up if someone, you can search an Instagram. Instagram is now indexable. And so there's all these places you can be looking. Your customer, your client is looking for help. Yeah, maybe they find a TikTok video, but are they in a state that you can practice in? Very unlikely that you get localized views in TikTok in Texas. So it's harder to control.

Michael Cowen (18:21)
There you go.

Kevin Daisey (18:41)
Yeah, you need to really look at what the market's doing and who can help you be visible because...

Michael Cowen (18:46)
Yeah, that's one thing. Like I can take a

trucking case that someone else might not even think is a case and turn it into a seven figure case. Cause I know the ins and outs. I know what the rules are. I know why something is dangerous. Cause I know what it's going to look like to another driver seeing a truck do something. I cannot both develop that level of expertise in trucking litigation and in trial psychology about how to try a case and develop expertise on how to market my firm. I've just with age, I've got a little bit of wisdom and a little bit of humility.

Kevin Daisey (19:09)
You

Michael Cowen (19:12)
and realize that I can't do it all. And so it's just so, you know, if you want to grow, you don't want to be just totally dependent on other people your whole career, then you just have to find a way to market yourself because you can be the best lawyer in the world if you're not getting cases, you know, what your skills are wasted if you're just working on small cases.

Kevin Daisey (19:30)
And I caution firms all the time. Like I've had firms that I've talked to that LSA ads started working really well for them. And so they dumped all the money in there, 50 grand a month. And then LSA, Google made a change and then they stopped working. And they're like, what are we going to do now? So you can't rely on a single source, even like a referral source, single marketing channel. If you have one that's working really, really well.

go invest into some other channel to build that channel, you know, build the next channel and cut the ones that don't work and your strategy is fluid right now. mean, constantly what is working? What's not working? Because the AI stuff it's so not a set it and forget it strategy whatsoever.

Michael Cowen (20:04)
Yeah, so like in the referral based marketing, got people, well, one, I do a lot of myself. That one is a lot of my personal relations to people. But we also have like a business development manager. Her job is to update every referral partner on every case every month and then to keep them happy, ask them if they have any other cases. We do a good job with that. We're not going to quit doing that. mean, obviously we want to maximize what we can get from that. And we love those relationships. actually have, I mean, I'm very good friends with all of our referral partners. But we want to both do that

not lose any of that, but then add another channel. And to do that, frankly, we have to find people that know what they're doing because we don't know what we're doing.

Kevin Daisey (20:38)
Yeah, a hundred percent. Just don't rely on one channel. You got to be exploring building. Do you know Tim Semelroth?

Michael Cowen (20:42)
and learning how to

How to get someone to answer the phone within four rings and make sure that person can sign up a client before they get off the phone, not just set an appointment. mean, whereas they've signed up with a lawyer by the time they meet with you. It's just, it's a whole nother set of skills. And luckily there's people out there that can help us learn to do that. Or in some instances, even do some of it for us. But really the best is, you you work with consultants, you work with marketing companies and you get people that are trustworthy that help you build that practice.

Kevin Daisey (20:50)
you

Now, intake is so important, especially when it comes to marketing and advertising. Referral, obviously intake is important, but it's, you have that relationship.

Michael Cowen (21:14)
It's really easy. No referrals. You're pretty

sold on the referral. Someone else is they've already signed a contract with another lawyer. You say you get my firm on top of their firm for the same price. It's that referral. That intake is super easy. Whereas you have someone call on the phone. They don't know anything about you. They don't get to necessarily talk to the lawyer on that call. And you have to have a non-lawyer who's on the phone with them, convincing them that your firm is the right firm and that they should sign a contract before they get off the phone. That is a skill set that has to be taught, has to be monitored.

has to be reinforced. And luckily, since I suck at that, there are people that are good at it that I can find to help me.

Kevin Daisey (21:46)
Yeah, there's some really good people out there for that. And it takes a big conversation on this podcast all the time.

Michael Cowen (21:52)
Absolutely. Cause you're marketing,

you know, the best market in the world, they can make your phone ring, but you still have to answer it and then make that client emotionally feel like you are the right firm for them.

Kevin Daisey (22:02)
Yeah, and then it's the whole client journey, right? What's the process like? How did you communicate with the client? Do they leave you a five-star review after the case has been settled? And did they refer you clients after that? So you're looking at that whole journey.

Michael Cowen (22:04)
Absolutely.

And hopefully while the case is going on,

they'll leave you a positive review. don't wait that long. I mean, if you're doing it right.

Kevin Daisey (22:19)
Yes, don't wait till it's settled. Yeah, so those are all the little things, right? And so, yeah, when you're marketing and advertising a lot, the stakes are high. There's a lot of things you gotta get right, or it's just gonna fall apart. More leads is not gonna fix it necessarily, so.

Michael Cowen (22:33)
No,

I mean, yeah, that's, you know, like I said, I was lucky enough to learn from my partner in New Mexico, Alex Begum. He's got his own firm in Texas. I'm owned firm. He's a brilliant marketer and a good lawyer. and we partnered together and he handles the marketing and the intake, but I've been able to learn from him and he's actually been super supportive even though we kind of compete in Texas, although he is so much bigger than, I probably ever will be. I don't think it affects them, but he has been so good in teaching us, you know,

how to do that and you know, and when do you have buyer's remarks? So someone, they talk to you, they feel real good. What is the point between 24 and 72 hours later where they're gonna second guess themselves? What can you do at that point to give them something unexpected and positive so that they realize, I didn't make the right choice? Same for like new hires. Like what do you do when someone accepts your job offer? There's always a period between when they accept and when they start and they start to second guess themselves.

So what can you do to make them realize? So we send a series of three little gift things to new employees between the time they take the job offer. And actually, we send one thing when they take the job offer, one thing like a week before they start, and then they have a nice welcome package on their first day.

Kevin Daisey (23:25)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's awesome.

That's huge. So, um, we're constantly working on that here. We, we send out a box of swag and all kinds of stuff. We actually ask our team, yeah. Could we, what can we improve and do better? They always appreciate that. But most people, what we don't talk about in the show a lot is you're talking about intake and a client and the client journey and turn them into a referral source. But what about our employees? What about our team? Like what's, what's your onboarding process for them? You know,

Michael Cowen (24:06)
Yeah. And

there's a great book out there. I think it's Will Guidara's Never Lose a Client Again, Never Lose an Employee Again. And so you really have to think about with someone new and we used to do a horrible job of it. I didn't even know how bad it was. Like someone, we'd offer them a job. They wouldn't hear from us. Two weeks later, they'd show up. Then they like sit around without much to do. And then at one point someone had them sit in a room and they had like the, like a word you can make it read to you, like in that computer voice.

Kevin Daisey (24:24)
Waste the whole day.

Michael Cowen (24:34)
read the employee handbook. So they would sit there and have like an 80 page monotone voice, sit there for three hours having the whole employee handbook read to them so that no one could say that they didn't know everything in the handbook. I mean, what a horrible way to start a job. And so now, like I said, we do the gifting before. We make sure there's someone there to welcome them. And then we have a 30, 60, 90 day plan. And so this is what you need to learn. So we start the training and the onboarding right away.

Kevin Daisey (24:47)
pretty bad.

Michael Cowen (24:57)
teaching them, make sure we're checking in, know, making sure that they feel like we're the right fit for them and that we're giving them every opportunity to succeed at a firm too. And again, I'm not really good at that because I want to go, I want to go try my next case or I want to go get my next deal. I want to go take a referring lawyer lunch and land another case or fly out and meet with a client, learn the story or go fly out and do a deposition or trial. That's what I like doing. But luckily there are people that really love doing this stuff.

Kevin Daisey (25:20)
Yeah.

Michael Cowen (25:21)
Once you get them on board and you align your interests, they've come up with great ways to really improve our onboarding. And our turnover has gone way down. We have very, very, very little unwanted turnover. Now sometimes we hire someone that wasn't the right fit or that over the years they're no longer the right fit. mean, things, people change, unfortunately, or the firm changes. Sometimes somebody was a great fit when we were eight employees.

But now that we're 40-something employees, they're not the right fit anymore. And it's sad. But we have very little unwanted turnover. And I really credit that to our COO, Jan Duke, and the culture she's built and the onboarding process she has.

Kevin Daisey (25:57)
That's huge. And kind of tie that back to marketing. I always tell people like your people, your culture, that's your marketing. They talk to people, they interact with a client, they pick up the phone. If that's a dreaded, you know, place to work and no one wants to be there and you, skip all those things you just said, and you're, you're trying to drive leads. And then they, they have someone pick up the phone and they don't give a crap because they're just working a job. versus.

Michael Cowen (26:03)
Absolutely.

Kevin Daisey (26:20)
Thanks for calling, you know, Cowen Law, whatever. And they're just like a pleasure, a pleasant, they love their job. They want to be there. They talk about their job. That's marketing right there at its finest.

Michael Cowen (26:31)
And if you think about return on investment, you you always want to think about lifetime value as of a customer, which is a little different in personal injury because you don't really want to have a client that has like 20 racks. You know, their their cases, their case value rapidly diminishes when they get, you know, they have too many claims. But imagine the difference between your case, someone comes in, they respond to your marketing. They had an OK experience. They don't fire you. You make a fee off them. So so let's say you spent, you know.

Kevin Daisey (26:40)
Lifetime. Yeah.

Michael Cowen (26:55)
X to get the case, you made three X on the case, you had a decent ROI on the case. As opposed to someone has a delightful experience and unexpected, not at all what they thought they would get from a personal injury firm. They're treated with love and respect in a way that they're not treated anywhere else in their lives. And they tell all their friends every time they walk by, they see your ad and go, they treated me awesome. And you end up not only getting a fee from them, but you get three other cases in the next 10 years.

And you each of those cases, you made three times what you spent. Now you're making 12 times 12 X instead of three X on that ad spend. And then if each of those people go, so I mean, treating your people right to then treat your clients right can make a huge effect. And conversely, imagine you have, you have the client, he didn't fire you. He didn't speak up against you, but every time they see your billboard or hear your  commercial, they tell whoever's next to them "man

they sucked. I would never hire them again." Then what is a negative ROI? You end up with cases you lose that you never even knew you could have had more than eat up whatever profit you made on that one case.

Kevin Daisey (27:57)
Well, what they say, like if someone has a bad experience, they're more likely to go tell everyone and leave a bad review. It's hard to get, it's hard to even get someone that had a good experience to leave a good review.

Michael Cowen (28:00)
Exactly.

But someone

with a bad experience will tell everybody they know about it.

Kevin Daisey (28:09)
100%, 100%. Yeah, Michael, appreciate it. We've kind of covered a lot of things. It just comes down to, you know, I think focusing on what you're good at, delegating and bringing in experts. And that's how you've been able to improve these systems. You just said, you know, you're not good at helping the employees have a good onboarding experience, but you have someone that loves doing that. And so I think that's the lesson here is.

If you're just starting out, have no money, no budget, that's fine. But as you move along, you need to be planning ahead. What's five years look like? What's 10 years? What's the ultimate goal? And there's a lot of things you got to work on. You know, that's just the reality of it. And you'll have a lot of hats at first, but try to take a hat off here and there and hire someone that knows what they're doing and loves what they're doing. And they will 10x your company. So.

Michael Cowen (28:53)
And for

everybody that's working those 70 hour weeks, they're having to do everything themselves. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I be smart with your money. When you hit something, reinvest it in your firm and you will get to the point where it is a sustainable model. You can have a nice life. And then, you know, I spend 80 % of my time doing what I love. And there's still some stuff I have to do that, no, because I own a business, I have to do it. And, know, I have to sometimes have, you know, conversations with people that I would rather not have to have. There's

Kevin Daisey (29:20)
Yep, that's all.

Michael Cowen (29:20)
you know, certain, you

know, every now and then it's best we do, we have an unreasonable client or an unhappy client, because maybe somebody messed up and I need to go calm that down and listen to them and fix the problem. I don't love doing those things, but I do them because that's part of it. But 80 % of what I do, I'm out there speaking for the firm, I'm doing podcasts like this, am trying cases, doing depositions, meeting with referral partners, going to clients homes and getting to know them better so I can really know their stories. have a fantastic life or having fun.

I do a lot of, I have a lot of fun in my life too. That's not outside of law. And it's because I built up a great team, but it's also because when I got some hits, I didn't go spend it all. I reinvested in the firm so I could get those great people that now I have this fantastic life. But for those people that are in there at the beginning, I was there too, know, line of credit maxed out, credit cards maxed out, not quite sure how I was going to make payroll in a week. But there is light at end of the tunnel. Just keep hustling and it will happen.

Kevin Daisey (30:09)
Hey man, I love it. yeah, same, same things, you know, I got to deal with and you got to continue to do that stuff, but it's part of the journey, right? And, and I love what you've done, with your firm and, and your, your life and, and what you just come on the show to share. And I'll tell everyone out there too, not just, just podcasts, but Michael, Michael, it's a podcast and all the people in the industry that are, they're all willing to help.

Michael Cowen (30:28)
Pro.

Absolutely.

Kevin Daisey (30:32)
That's one thing

I'll say about the legal industry. Everyone's out there to help everybody. And don't say you can't find someone that can help you, because that's not the truth. plenty of you.

Michael Cowen (30:41)
And

I wouldn't be where I am today without a bunch of free help that a lot of other lawyers generously spent time to share their wisdom and their advice with me. And so I feel like karma requires that I pay it forward. And every really successful trial lawyer I know spends a lot of time talking to people, mentoring people. And it's just part of our culture. And it's one of the reasons I love what I do.

Kevin Daisey (31:01)
Yeah, as a non-lawyer, it's awesome to see and to just be somewhat of a part of it. I appreciate it. Michael, thank you so much for sharing today. Everyone, please reach out, connect, follow Michael. What's the best way for them to reach out, connect and...

Michael Cowen (31:14)
Yeah, if

you want to just get to know me better, my podcast, Trial Lawyer Nation is one we get a lot of people listening. We're really honest and open on with what we go through in life in that podcast. So I encourage people there. If you want to reach out to me directly, email is the best way. michael@cowenlaw.com work, I travel a lot for work, so I'm not in the office all the time. I love meeting with clients. I love trying cases. So email is the best way to get back to me and that way we can set a time to talk.

Kevin Daisey (31:41)
Love it. All right. Well, everyone, you heard it. Reach out, Trial Lawyer Nation podcast. Check him out there. If you want a personal introduction, let me know. I'll do that by email to Michael and, yeah, I thank you for sharing everybody, on the show that's listening should have gotten a ton of value from the episode today. So, I appreciate it. Everyone that listens. Thank you so much as always.

If you want to see a certain person on the show or you're yourself, feel you have something to share, reach out. Love to have you on the show. So Michael, thank you so much, sir. Stick on with me for a sec. This, the files take a second to upload sometimes. Everyone else have a great day and we'll see you soon.

Michael Cowen (32:10)
Thank you.