Jordan Ostroff

Kevin Daisey (00:31)
What's up my friends. Thank you for tuning into the show. I got my friend Jordan here. He's been on the show before. this guy is all over the place. Does some really cool stuff. Always has an awesome shirt on, always laid back. Just love his whole, his whole mood and everything. So Jordan, welcome to the show. Excited to, to chat today.

Jordan Ostroff (00:50)
Excited to be back, man. Thanks for having me.

Kevin Daisey (00:52)
Yes, sir. And I know that while we're recording this, before this might come out or after, we'll be at Max Law Con in Nashville. Jordan's going, I'm going. Should be a great time. So if this comes out before then, hope to see you guys there. If it comes out after then.

Jordan Ostroff (01:04)
If you want to hear

my wife's smack talk, what it's like working with me, you got to go. We're panel together about it. So it's going to be super exciting.

Kevin Daisey (01:12)
I'm definitely not missing that one. So I'm sure she's got some good things to say.

Jordan Ostroff (01:18)
yeah, it's just

if it was not for my wife, I would be bankrupt like 17 times over. But if it was not for me, my wife would be super boring. And so like, it's a really good balance. just her stories are like her perspective of my ideas is hysterical because in retrospect, they're terrible. But in the moment, I'm like, Kevin, I could execute. I could buy an elephant for our firm and generate business with it. You know, like I could go nuts. And she keeps me grounded.

Kevin Daisey (01:43)
That's good to have that. My wife's very similar, I would say. I'm more aggressive, more wanting to do crazy stuff or invest in things or do whatever. And she's more like, well, let's look at the math, the numbers. And I'm like, oh, come on. So it's good we have that. We're lucky. So Jordan, quick introduction for folks that might not know you. Tell us a little bit about your background and your story. It's a really cool one.

Jordan Ostroff (02:05)
Sure, man. ⁓ So I'll keep going on with my wife. My wife and I met in court on opposite sides. I was a prosecutor. She was a public defender. And I'd love to say we hit it off immediately, but she refused to date me for like a year and a half, although we got married pretty quickly after that, and then ended up opening up our own firm together, which the first year of that and the first year of our son's life were by far the two worst years of marriage, figuring out how roles change and whatnot from there.

Kevin Daisey (02:05)
we'll dive into some other fun stuff.

Jordan Ostroff (02:33)
but after a lot of pitfalls, it culminated in us being able to drive cross-country for about 13 months during COVID while the firm had record profits. We were a PI firm. we figured, Hey, if no one's driving for COVID, like we can do all this stuff virtual might as well get going. that led to me having a marketing company for lawyers for awhile, and then ultimately getting bought out there so I could focus on coaching to help more lawyers create their version of my journey from being.

overwhelmed and aggravated to happy. And sometimes that means wearing a Hawaiian shirt. Sometimes that means finding the job you actually want to do. But ultimately the happier you are, the longer you stay in the game.

Kevin Daisey (03:08)
Yeah, love it man. It's an awesome story and love what you represent, your brand, know, and everything that you're doing is awesome. And you have a new book, which you are currently working on as we're recording. He was working on his book before we got on the show. He's jumping right back into it after we get off the show. So excited to see that come out. And again, it could be out here soon. So yeah, share more about that when people can look for it.

Jordan Ostroff (03:30)
Sure, man. So I released Love Your Law Firm on April Fool's Day of last year, and I hated the book the entire time. It was a terrible process. I am not a fan of writing a book that way, but thankfully from that I learned a much better way to do it. And so like I'm genuinely loving the second edition. I toyed with calling it like Love Your Law Firm More or Love Your Law Firm Harder or something along those lines, but I think we're just gonna go with Love Your Law Firm Second Edition.

It's got, it's almost an entirely new book, but this time I'm enjoying the process. And so I think that will be reflected in the storytelling.

Kevin Daisey (04:06)
Yeah, I would assume that if you're loving the process, you're loving that, then that'll be reflected in the copy and the content in the book. So, excellent, man. Well, excited to see that and help, you know, let people know about it. If we can help them help their firms, help them live a better life, help them manage their firm better. That's what we're all about on the show here. So excited to, to show, share that with you. So, or for you, I guess. Well,

One of the topics we talked about, which I thought was intriguing too, obviously is the world I live in is marketing leads, helping firms get in front of their potential customers so they can help them with their needs. And the topic was leads to lifestyle. And I was like, I really like that title. So, I guess we're gonna dive into that.

And kick it off, man. Like, what do you got to share today that can help our law firm owners?

Jordan Ostroff (04:54)
⁓

Let's start with this. No one actually teaches you how to run a business. Certainly not in law school. Maybe if you go to business school. I don't know. I was a history major. That didn't help. Law school did not help from the business side of stuff. But the one thing I had going for me was I moved up to Orlando to go to University of Central Florida for undergrad. Stayed here for law school at Barry. Was a prosecutor here. Opened up my practice here.

So I'd been in the area for a long period of time and I was like, hey, I'm gonna go talk to the fraternities and sororities. I'm gonna tell them how not to get arrested, give them some good advice. We got these awesome sunglasses with our branding on it and it's got the beer can opener, although every time you use it, they break off. So it's more for show.

And it worked out really well, you know, like I wish I could tell you I was smart enough to have thought through it more than just being like, you know, I know fraternities and sororities, like, let's try it. Had I have known what I was doing and thought through, like, who did I want to work with? And I enjoyed working with first time offenders on low level offenses where their parents paid money. I would have done that for everything. You know, it's only like three years later when I was like, man, the only marketing that worked for me was referrals and speaking to the

fraternities. And so like, really want to help more people think through the end goal of marketing to then work backwards to get there in a way that you actually enjoy the journey.

Kevin Daisey (06:14)
I love that. Yeah. Who do you want to work with? Who do you want to help? you know, what's your niche? What's your focus? I think that's massively important to know that not just what's going to be the trick that works, but like who are you generally want to work with and what kind of work do you want to do that, you know, brings you happiness and that you enjoy, you know? I think a lot of firms like, what's, what's, can bring dollars into today? And like, that's their focus.

Jordan Ostroff (06:41)
Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (06:42)
It might not be the clients they want to work with or the thing that they're the best at or that they enjoy.

Jordan Ostroff (06:47)
And even if you're focused on, even from the money standpoint, too many people get focused on raw dollars, not on the most profitable cases. You know, it's interesting to me, like you talked to a lot of immigration attorneys and they will charge beaucoup bucks for asylum cases because there's so much work and it's an emergency and all that, but then come to find out they're spending a hundred hours on that. Whereas a case where, you know, it's a marriage or a work visa or something like that, they might charge, you know,

25 % of the rate, it might only take them 10 hours. And so that's almost two and a half times as profitable. So even if you're like, hey, big dollar, big value cases, you actually really need to be thinking about what's truly profitable for your firm.

Kevin Daisey (07:25)
Absolutely. was talking to, I talked to a lot of immigration attorneys, but I mean, I was surprised to learn, you know, immigration is like five, 6,000 is kind of like average. I was like, oh, that's actually pretty darn good. And I've heard some that are higher than that, but it's, and then they go, well, but some can be worth a lot more. But yeah, well, this involves, you know, and how many people are you putting into that? How much time and hours?

I, there's a personal injury firm that is a client of ours now. When I met with them previously, they were doing lead gen, non-branded lead gen. So they're just buying leads basically. Their brand is not represented, so they're not really, it's not building any kind of brand awareness for them. And they were spending hundreds of thousands of dollars a month. And after meeting with the CFO, he was digging into it. And their lead, their average

case value was way down. They had to hire way more intake people to handle the volume, like seven people. And they were break even on that, that whole thing. So they're spending like a hundred grand a month on the leads. They break even. So although their revenue looked, you know, like it's the same case values were down and it required more people intake and the quality was just out there.

But it was hard to uncover it. And they kind of brought me in to go and try to figure out what's the problem. And they had stopped all brand, all SEO, and they were going to lead gen all in. And they lost a lot of positioning and their brand messaging. They stopped traditional marketing in their market. And it was like, now you're reliant on this lead gen drug, right? So just a terrible situation.

That was hard to see at a scale like that.

Jordan Ostroff (09:01)
Me do like.

Kevin Daisey (09:10)
Thank you for tuning into the show today. I have taken things to the next level and I've started the Managing Partners Mastermind. We're a peer group of owners looking for connection, clarity, and growth strategies. So if you're looking to grow your law firm and not do it alone, please consider joining the group. Spots are limited, so I ask for anyone to reach out to me directly through LinkedIn and we can set up a one-on-one call to make sure it's a fit.

Now back to the show.

Jordan Ostroff (09:37)
I can tell you, I mean, from my story, so my son was born March 2nd, 2018, and so I cut our entire marketing budget that year. I was like, look, I'll at least spend more time with my kids, but I can't do 80 hours a week to make no money. So we cut like $135,000 a year marketing. My firm made $5,000 less for the next year. Not that the marketing was that bad, but that we were able to naturally grow.

by doing a better job and generate more stuff from there. And then like that allowed me to basically like reboot the entire concept of a firm because I finally had some space to do it instead of just being overworked, underpaid, facing every credit card bill, you know, praying that it would get paid.

Kevin Daisey (10:15)
Yeah. I mean, just to uncover something like that to where, you know, those dollars in your case, or in the other case of a client I have now, weren't really doing anything to be effective. and so either the wrong marketing, wrong message, whatever, but just keeping your eye on this kind of stuff and like saying, Hey, is this bringing in the client that we want? And is, is it growing that, or is it going in a different direction?

Why am I working on these cases that I shouldn't be working on? I think just being involved and having that a pulse on that and keeping an eye on this thing. It's just like Intake. I had a guess on here a little while back. They didn't change their marketing at all. Same advertising, same marketing, same everything. Focused on Intake and grew by 3X. Just closing more of the leads they were already getting.

You know, so.

Jordan Ostroff (11:00)
So it's

amazing to me. Everybody thinks they have a marketing problem, but then if you dive in, you realize sometimes it's the intake problem. Sometimes it's just not knowing what type of cases it's, you so that's why like more attorneys need to be intentional. You what is the end goal? What does this look like 20 years down the road? And then let's work backwards because then you start thinking through these things in a much different perspective and ultimately help yourself stay in the game longer. I mean, I don't know.

If you're like me in my first seven years as an attorney, I know more people that either unfortunately died by suicide, heart attack, stroke, or just abandoned their practice than who retired. And it's because it's a grind, you know, and people grind themselves in a dust. You know, if you're looking for, I've got 20 years left. How do I stay in the game? You know, I've got 30, 40, whatever the number is, you you start really thinking through this. And so I think more people can do it backwards and then you market to the right kind of people, the right kind of cases, and you actually enjoy your firm.

Kevin Daisey (11:54)
Yeah. I love that idea of looking, looking ahead and, working backwards. think, you know, a lot of us, you know, you come out as you're the technician, right? You're, you're the lawyer. You like to be a lawyer. Now you're in a law firm. Now you kind of run a business, but you're not really. So you have to kind of start running a business. And so it's, you know, you're just kind of like stuck in it, right? And then you're just stuck in the day to day planning ahead sounds.

Like, ain't got time for that. You know, so it's just easy to get stuck. And now you, here you are going, Holy shit. Five years went by. this is not where I want to be. Right. So yeah. Do you, and you want, do you want to be Morgan and Morgan or do want to not be like, do you want to just, I want to have a comfortable lifestyle. I'm cool with that. Like, what is it? Is it in between? Is it, want the whole state of Florida is it, you know, I one office and I want to take off.

you know six months of the year what is it lay it out so

Jordan Ostroff (12:43)
Well, that's why, like from that standpoint, I think you start with what is the job you actually want? Like create your job, the ideal, you know, what does that job do in the ideal week, the ideal month, something along those lines. And then you can build in the support around that position. Ultimately though, I think like, if you really want to be a lawyer with a full caseload, I think you have to go work for somebody else. But if you're, you know, but if you want the situation where I want to be able to drop my kids off at school and pick them up and I've got these hours, then all right, you backfill.

You I've got 30 hours a week to work. Every case takes me, you know, 10 hours. So how can I afford to take three cases a week or how can I find help to, you know, cut those numbers down? Like you just, really have to start with your, like you are the puzzle piece. Make your puzzle piece first and then figure out the rest of the puzzle instead of this weird like, well, that one person at law school who bullied me would really change their tune if they knew I had a 60 person law firm or whatever motivates people into hating their firm one day.

Kevin Daisey (13:39)
Yeah, success is the best revenge right? No, I love that whole concept there and You're creating you are yet Core values that should be yours. You should set this, you know your vision everything if you're gonna hire one person or a thousand people Like that's something you need to set in place And I love the idea of like your

perfect position and that might not happen now, it might be in the future. But to actually say this is, in 10 years, I would love to, this is my job. Maybe it's the janitor at the firm. That sounds kind of nice actually versus what I have to do every day. So I love that. there tips, kind of systems, you know, I know you do a lot with your consulting, but what would you recommend a loyal firm that's

or a lawyer that's listening, especially the ones that are starting up, talked to tons of listening to the show that are just getting started. And they're kind of in that moment where they have a chance to do it right. You know?

Jordan Ostroff (14:23)
Yeah.

Solve your actual biggest problem first. create the vision, but as soon as you have that vision of what you're aiming for, solve your first real biggest problem. It amazes me how many people are like, hey, this is everything going on in my firm. I have no cases. I have none of this. I have no systems. Let me start writing my own blog posts and putting them up on a website, right? Like that's not your biggest current problem. You your biggest current problem is

Whatever that system that you don't have that's taking the most amount of time is your biggest issue. If you need more cases, reach out to Kevin, reach out to a marketing company, let them do it versus you building it from scratch because you can be working on systems, you know, or reach out to a coach to help you with the systems and you go get lunch with people. Like really focus on your actual biggest problem because you need the time to solve anything else, to make any sort of change in life.

So once you have that vision, you have to get there and that's gonna take time and effort.

Kevin Daisey (15:29)
Yeah, I think it's easy to get, well, it's just easy to get caught up. And this is me too on something that's in front of you. And it's probably not the most important thing. Something that's also you prefer to do or like to do, but it's not the most important thing. That's really challenging, right? I'd rather go do this thing over here. Cause that's what I like to do. Might need the last thing that I should be doing. And so for a new firm, a new lawyer, you're going to meet yours, all these things.

You know, the book traction, right? You can go to this book and, and go, I got to do all these things. It's overwhelming. And like, well, what should I do first? So I think taking time to sit back and plan, talk to people like Jordan. Like what, I don't know what to do first. you know I mean? Like people are so helpful out there. There's so many people that will help you. Other lawyers, Jordan, myself, and you go, where are you? What's going on?

And maybe you're just blind to what the biggest problem is. don't know, but it's easy to get caught doing things that aren't going to move the needle and you're just stuck in the same place next year.

Jordan Ostroff (16:24)
Well, and give yourself some grace. know, like I love traction. It is, I've read it multiple times. It's phenomenal. But traction is designed for like 2 million plus revenue companies. So if you're sitting here, if the first book you ever read when you opened your firm was traction, you can't do those things. don't, your leadership team is your brain, your right hand, your left hand and your feet, you know, like that's what's leading everything. You know, don't have the opportunity to do these things. And so you have to figure out that natural progression.

Kevin Daisey (16:44)
Yeah.

Jordan Ostroff (16:50)
You know, that might be to do interaction 100 % fine. But again, like what's the step you can take now? What's the thing you can control? What's the biggest issue? What's going to give you back the most time? Meet yourself where you currently are as you work towards where you want to be.

Kevin Daisey (17:03)
Yeah, that's a really good point. I think a lot of things out there, a lot of the conferences, a lot of the advice, it's centered around firms that are doing a few million. They have a few attorneys, they have staff, they have an office in systems and things like that. So it's more about how do we get better and how do we get to the next step.

But if you're new, you're just getting started. Like those are things that, you know, you don't need to be concerned with at the moment. So yeah, good point. I like that.

Jordan Ostroff (17:30)
Hey,

I've lived in it and now I've, and now I coach other people on their version of it. So it's, we all have the same problems and that's a beautiful thing. That is not a complaint. The fact that all of us struggle with the same things is great because it's that much easier to find good help or see people's answers or have a mentor or a coach or something along those lines. We are not sitting in a laboratory figuring out the next medical, you know,

Kevin Daisey (17:55)
you

Jordan Ostroff (17:55)
drug future, whatever. We are arguing cases that already happened and applying them to a current situation. We are running a law firm almost the same way that they've been run for hundreds of years, for better and worse. There are people out there that can help, but make sure they are slightly further ahead than you. If you can sit down with John Morgan tomorrow and you're a $100,000 firm, the advice is going to be tough to take. Or that it's people that

know how to break it down for you. So, you know, you will pull great things from everybody, but it's that next step for you. It's not 37 steps later, you need to worry about this thing.

Kevin Daisey (18:31)
Yeah. And there's so much, the answers are all out there and the people that have the answers are all out there. And most people are willing to give them to you. I think it's just, yeah, to your point, some people might come in hot with way more than you can manage and process. And they mean well, probably. It's just, you know, they're just like when someone's, when you have kids, right? all your friends that have had kids are like, Jordan.

You got to do this, make sure you do this. I got this book. and I like to say that everyone ignores all of it because they're just like, whatever. got to figure it out myself. And then when you have kids and you have friends that are just getting ready to have a kid, you do the same shit to them. Like, hold on. I know what you need to do and you need to do this and buy this and diapers are expensive. And you know, we just, we, we just tend to do that.

But it's from a good place. It's just, you know, they got to figure it out themselves a little bit.

Jordan Ostroff (19:20)
Right. And you have to give yourself the time to do that. So like, you know, we talked about MaxLaw, you talked about conferences. You should be going to conferences. But, no, not but, and, and you should be blocking off your calendar for several days after the conference to actually go through all your notes, go through the handouts, figure out what you can implement in the next, you know, 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, and then do it. You know, I see so many people that run the conference circuit because they don't

Kevin Daisey (19:27)
100%.

Jordan Ostroff (19:47)
Keep themselves they don't allow themselves enough time to execute on the stuff that they've learned You know for the longest time it was impossible to find information for humans like we grew up with a lack of information We now have an overwhelming amount of information I can go to chat GPT and get all of recorded human history repeated to me in a cool conversational format That's not our problem The problem is doing it or the problem is screening out what not to do and doing the things that you should be doing

Kevin Daisey (20:14)
100%. Yeah, definitely go to conferences. Don't go there just to hang out and like, that's why you're there. Like you have to come back and implement. And if it's one fricking thing, you could have 20 pages of notes, find the one thing and go, I'm going to do that thing. Because a lot of it might be beyond kind of like traction. Like it might be just, you're not even ready for it. In depth, might come to that note back, those notes two years from now, and now you're ready for that thing. You know what mean?

And it was taught to you two years prior. It's still relevant, but it's just, you're not ready for certain things at certain times. And they don't even make sense to you until you get to that place and you're like, shit, that one thing. Now I can do that because I have, you know, I've grown to a point where that makes sense. So if you just do the, do one implementation from something from each of these conferences will be huge.

Jordan Ostroff (21:01)
Yeah, I love the, it's like the, it's not a meme, it's the image online and it's got like the perfect ladder and it's only got two rungs on it. It's got the okay ladder and it's got a thousand rungs on it and that person's gone. You know, you're just like, you will build on top of all these things. is that like, that's why we talk about loving the journey. So how do you love the journey? By understanding what goal you are working towards and trying to have as much fun getting there as possible. You know, the people that

have no long-term vision, don't know what decision is right and what decision is wrong, and therefore, that's where burnout comes from. If you can be grinding away on a tough project, knowing what the outcome is gonna do for you, and find joy in it, like my family, love escape rooms. I like somebody locking me in a room with difficult puzzles to get out. I find that to be incredibly fun. If I was banging my head against the wall, yeah, right? But if you're banging your head against the wall, not knowing what to do, that's aggravating, right?

Kevin Daisey (21:47)
We do that too.

Jordan Ostroff (21:54)
Everybody likes a good problem. It's finding that right amount of complication that is a worthwhile solve instead of either way too hard or way too easy.

Kevin Daisey (22:03)
Yeah, I mean, I've heard that, you know, from, forgot who I heard this from, but it was like the secret to happiness is, is accomplishment of completing something. And it could be something stupid. Like, I just put a lamp together right over here. Me and my new sales guy, we put a lamp together. Stupid out in the front, you know, but it's like, you know, you like to complete things, challenges, things that you feel like, Hey, I did that. And now I'm moving on. If you're just blindly working, there's plenty of work to do, but

Jordan Ostroff (22:16)
There we go.

Kevin Daisey (22:26)
A lot of times you go by and you're like, what am I doing? Right? There's no real vision. There's no goal. There's no rhyme or reason other than the fact that I have to do this because now I own a law firm and that has to happen. versus you controlling what the outcome is going to be planning for that building a vision and say, I get to run a law firm. I get to employ these people. I get to do whatever I.

I wish to do because I planned it this way.

Jordan Ostroff (22:50)
And the beauty is, as a business owner, you can also make money off of almost anything. So like maybe not the lamp example, but like you want to play more golf. Great. Find referral sources and go play golf. I'm sure that the lamp will make a great story on Facebook, right? Like there's the, this is a $5,000 lamp because it took me five hours to put it together or something like that, you know, whatever.

I learned that I can do, or you got it from Ikea, and I learned we can create things without any words. We can just use pictures. Now my law firm has redone our entire intake system with just images and graphics or something. I don't know. There's stories we can pull from everything, but I'm always amazed by how many business owners I talk to who are like, man, I wanna try more new restaurants. I wanna go play more golf. I wanna do more fun things. Great.

Kevin Daisey (23:25)
like that.

Jordan Ostroff (23:37)
Go do them with referral partners, go do them with clients, go do them with vendors, go do these things. It amazes me how much money you can make by living a better life when you do it with people that can help you in some manner. They might be mentors, they might be referral sources, they might be experts.

Kevin Daisey (23:54)
Absolutely, Yeah. mean, for me, business is everything. People are like, hey, Kevin, you give it out. Your business email or your business. Like everything for me is just tied together. It's all business. love, I love business. I love what we do and I love what I do. So a hundred percent. Like if you talk to like a tax strategist, all that's all you can write all that stuff off to like save money on taxes. Travel. I know some attorneys that travel in for a conference.

Jordan Ostroff (24:13)
Hey, here we go.

Kevin Daisey (24:17)
Then they stay three or four days after the conference, have their wife or husband, and they make a trip out of it. You can write the whole thing off because a certain amount of time was recorded as a conference or whatever. So it's all kinds of creative things you can do to travel with your spouse, to also get work done and feel like you accomplished something. And you can also include them in that too, but think outside of the box. There's so much you can do.

And I love all my partners, referral partners, lawyers, non-clients, clients, just as friends. it's, to me, it's, you know, it's going to a conference is not, that's not work. That's for sure.

Jordan Ostroff (24:54)
Well, but

like this is what keeps you in the game. You know, as humans, we are social creatures. So if you are hanging out with people at conferences, if you're going to these fun things, it's great. And for, you know, for your spouse, imagine the difference between the spouse who is supportive of you doing these things and the one who isn't because you're making time for them as at the right amount, you know, like if you are working 100 % of the time, I can't imagine your spouse is okay with that.

But if they're coming with you to the conferences and you're taking those couple extra days and they're seeing the benefit of these things, then it's that much easier to have a great home relationship and that much more supportive of a partner as you put in a late night, week, a couple of weeks before trial and those kinds of things that come up. Enjoy the time as much as you can, because there will be terrible times no matter what you do. Your goal is to have as few terrible times as possible with as much time in between them and not have them linger for as long as possible.

that success as a business owner. It's not everything being perfect because that will never happen, my friends.

Kevin Daisey (25:52)
That never happened. Yeah. I love that. I think involving your spouse or whatever and just not just, and this is my, my wife, actually wasn't very involved in my business for quite a while. Now I bring her into the conversations. I'll talk about everything. We also have kind of our own business, that we do for real estate. And that's so much better than like the separation of like, I was at work. Now I'm not at work. Like, like, no, it's this is

This all needs to be kind integrated. It's a lot better that way for me. And especially when she's like, hey, what if we did this or, you know, what if we bought this here? We could write this off and like, she's coming up with some ideas. So that's way more fun to me than like this. You don't know anything about my company or my work. You know what mean?

Jordan Ostroff (26:32)
Right. Well, and then if you

compartmentalize your life like that, then you're like, well, what, who am I right now? Right? Like am I, am I business Jordan? Am I friend Jordan? Am I that if you were just you the entire way through, you don't have to put on errors, you know, to be fair, I don't wear a Hawaiian shirt a hundred percent of the time, but you know, that's my big sacrifice. I guess, you know, this, this is, this is my uniform, but I'm yeah.

Kevin Daisey (26:52)
I gotta...

Salty Crew.

Jordan Ostroff (26:56)
There we go. But like, if you ran into me in a different shirt, I'm still laid back. I'm still nice. I'm still funny. I'm still cracking jokes. Like I'm still me. just, you I'm in, I'm not in my uniform.

Kevin Daisey (27:07)
No, no, you're just, you're yourself. don't, you know, I mean, I might, that's, that's a weird topic there. Like I really wear a polo. This is like a, you know, salty crew, like kind of surf shirt. Um, if I don't have to wear a suit and tie and all that, I'm, I'm never going to do it. Um, if I get a conferences, I might take a dress shirt. You'll probably see me in a t-shirt with like a blazer on top it. Um, I don't think any of that matters and I don't care too much. I rather wear a hat. My hair is thin. hate.

just putting stuff in my hair. So you might see me with a hat on at a conference, but I just kind of do my thing. I try not to, took care of too much, but I'm also aware of my surroundings in San Marcos. If it's a nice event, I'm going to dress up. but if I had my choice, I would not be dressed up. I'd be just casual as I can possibly be. So, and I'm

Jordan Ostroff (27:53)
But

take that a step further because if you are dressed up the way you want, you are showing up to the event with a smile on your face in a better mood. You're more patient. know, like it just there's a comedian that has a skit about wearing a tie is like being choked by a young child. And if you have a backpack on, it's like they've jumped on you. And like, why do we want to do that all day? I don't know. You know, so if you're dreading how you dress, if you're dreading who's at an event, if you're dread, you know, like

I've done some terrible networking, dreaded going to the event. So I wasn't as open to the conversation. I wasn't as in it. was, you know, checking the watch to see where we could go as opposed to, know, if you stack the deck in your favor, you become more memorable. You become the kind of person people want to hang out with. You build better relationships. You take more from it. You actually do the follow up that you told people you would do. Like all of this seems so woo woo, like just have fun, but it's backed by the actions that you will naturally take.

when you are enjoying what you're doing to make sure it's right and effective.

Kevin Daisey (28:52)
That's a good point Yeah, trying to be someone you're not if you're in a networking event for your business law firm, right? Law firm lawyers to be a networking with other attorneys with local business owners, whatever If you're not enjoying it and you're just dreading being there You know, I don't know how you're be effective at having a conversation with anybody, you know, so

Jordan Ostroff (29:11)
But if your mentor told you that's how they grew their firm and you hate networking, don't grow your firm the same way. It's just simple. There should be a part of you that everything feels right as you are doing it. I understand we want to get a little bit out of our comfort zone and I'm fine with that. I'm not saying everything needs to be easy. But when you find more things that you enjoy, you will spend the extra time to learn the tactics. You will show up in a better mood. You will come back, you will stay in touch with people.

It's so much easier when you have some sense of joy and enjoyment out of what you are doing to grow, how you are running your firm, what the marketing looks like. All those things come back to keeping you going forward towards that long-term vision.

Kevin Daisey (29:52)
100%. Like for me, like if I, if you were like, Kevin, you have the cold call, you know, 20 or a hundred law firms every day. That works. So you have to do it. Probably not going to do it, but if I had to, it would be not successful. Cause I don't want to do it. I don't want to bug them. They don't want to hear from me. It's not working. Not going to do it. So, and that's one of those things where some things you just, you know, damn well you're just.

you're not gonna do it, it's not gonna make sense, even if you're told to do it. ⁓ But I think other things can be a little harder.

Jordan Ostroff (30:17)
store. And the crazy part is,

the crazy part is there are people out there that love doing the things you hate. So you hire them. Like it's that simple. You know, I do not have patients on the phone. I just, I'm sorry. This phone call should have been an email. could have happened in two seconds instead of a 30 minute phone call. So I can hire people who love sitting on the phone and chatting with people to be my intake specialist, to be

our receptionist to go through all those things. Like you can tap into other people's superpowers. You know, I think as business owners, we should be doubling down on our strengths. And then you just fire to cover your weaknesses with somebody else's strength. And that's how the company becomes great. That's how the company has no weaknesses. It's not each individual person. It's the collective. It's the right people in the right seats to use our attraction analogy again.

Kevin Daisey (31:04)
There you go. Yep.

Right. People on the bus and the right seats. yeah. And I think that's, you know, as like a extrovert entrepreneur, visionary kind of that's me. It always feels kind of weird when, know, when I have an employee, that's like, they do really great work and I'm like, you need to go lead a team and blah, blah, blah. And they're like, no, I can't do that. I'm like, you're missing the opportunity. And they're like, I just want to fricking turn the wrench. I want to do this thing.

And always was like, why? Why? Like they're not like me. They're not wired like me. And ⁓ you need those people. You need those people.

Jordan Ostroff (31:34)
Well.

And then you ever read Quiet by Susan Cain?

Kevin Daisey (31:38)
I have not, no.

Jordan Ostroff (31:39)
So I am like you, I am so extroverted. So the book is about the benefit of introverts. And so there's this study they did for teams. And so the best teams are either a team of extroverts run by an introvert or a team of introverts run by an extrovert. And then she goes through like how the differences are played and what you have to do. And because that's how you get a difference of perspective. You know, it cracks me up. Like we did the disk assessment at my firm one time and everybody was just off the charts, super high. We all want to be

Kevin Daisey (31:40)
I'm going to.

Jordan Ostroff (32:06)
influential and go out and chit chat with people. And I was like, so nobody wants to stay and do the work. So we went to hire, we try to find more people who are SEs to support us. And then we could go nuts and chat with everybody knowing that, you know, the home base was going to grind through all the work, dot all the I's cross all the T's. And you just, you build an organization, you know, it becomes it's a company is its own thing, but like, turn it into a thing that has a bunch of different,

success opportunities, a bunch of different superpowers, bunch, know, cover for each other's weaknesses. Let everybody focus on their strengths.

Kevin Daisey (32:38)
Yeah, that was, know, doing that exercise allowed you to do things with intention. Like, well, we just hired a bunch of people that we liked and they're all fun and now no one's doing the work. You know, so it's, it's going, okay, well now we need to, we need to think about this and be more intentional at what kind of folks we're bringing on. it's a great, great example right there. yeah, I love it. Love all of it. That was the book again that you recommended quiet.

Jordan Ostroff (33:01)
Quiet by Susan Cain. Yeah.

Kevin Daisey (33:03)
Alright, everybody write that

down. I don't, never read that book so it's going on my list for sure.

Jordan Ostroff (33:08)
Well, it's interesting because obviously, like, I think most people that write books are extroverts, or at least they're ghostwritten for extroverts. You you get the high level CEO that did cross country tours and was speaking and stuff. Like, I think that person's an extrovert. So it's nice to hear the benefit of introverts and the, and, you know, why we need them on the team and how we make sure they are comfortable. you know, your situation of

trying to turn them into a boss may not be the right thing, but knowing that they are there becomes a huge and knowing how to get a little bit of that insight out of them makes the company more stronger as a whole. The difference of opinion, the different perspectives end up leading to success.

Kevin Daisey (33:46)
I mean, yeah, they get this thing. They make your crazy ideas into reality too, right? Or they tell you, that's crazy. We're not gonna do that.

Jordan Ostroff (33:55)
Yeah, that's super. I mean, you look at every, you know, Walt Disney had his brother Roy and Steve Jobs had Wozniak. And I mean, you can go down the list of Bill Gates had Steve Ballmer. Like all these people had that really good grinder getting things done behind them. It's super important. And, and it's not that that person acted that way. It's that person genuinely loved that stuff while the, you know, crazy visionary like you and I just went off into space with our vision.

We had that backing. So we're not looking for people to change who they are. We're looking to find the people that we need. Remember, we're that puzzle piece. We're creating a whole picture. Find the other pieces that fit in correctly to build you the image that you want.

Kevin Daisey (34:33)
Yeah. And they're in the right people. they want to do the work. They want to follow you. They want to be part of it. They have mental ownership in your business. Right. and then we'll do whatever it takes. So I love it, man. It's awesome. Jordan. what, I see you got a new book coming out. We're going to be on the lookout for that. What is the name of the new book? Did you set on the title for it?

Jordan Ostroff (34:52)
Yeah, just Love Your Law Firm second edition. You know, we didn't we didn't go with anything too crazy.

Kevin Daisey (34:57)
Love Your Law Firm. So, his book's already, he has a book already out there. Love Your Law Firm, but this is the second edition coming. He was telling me how much more he loved the process to write this book. It's sounds like there's a lot of differences. It's a brand new book. So, I urge you to, check that out and, we'll obviously see it at Max Law and, what's the best way for folks to reach out and connect with you.

Jordan Ostroff (35:17)
Sure, if you want the full Jordan experience, Facebook. It is a nice mix of like really helpful tidbits and the hilarious stuff that my child says that drives me nuts, all rolled in together to be, you know, it's the life that is me. There are, I believe, two Jordan Ostroff in the world. The other one's a great salesperson out of Boston, and then there's the bearded Hawaiian shirt wearing one. So I will stand out.

Kevin Daisey (35:21)
Bye.

Yeah, you're in Orlando, Florida, right?

Jordan Ostroff (35:41)
I'm actually in San Antonio now, but yeah, was in Orlando for a long time.

Kevin Daisey (35:44)
Oh, I thought you were still in Orlando. So now you're in Texas. Okay. So I was going to say we're the Array Digital Christmas party is going to be hosted in Orlando. And we have, think like 70 people coming. That's going to be pretty cool. Yeah. We, uh, we haven't done that in a couple of years. So COVID kind of threw that one and, and we've grown so much that that's way more people than I have ever expected that travel and fly in somewhere. So that'll be, uh,

Jordan Ostroff (35:59)
Yeah, that's awesome.

What venue?

Kevin Daisey (36:13)
Interesting.

Jordan Ostroff (36:13)
Congrats. What venue?

Kevin Daisey (36:15)
Ummm... I'm not on that team, so I don't know.

Jordan Ostroff (36:17)
Okay, even better, see? Spoken like a great CEO, you know? I remember people asking me like for the WiFi password and I was like, I have no idea. You know, where's the 70 person Christmas party? I don't know, but I trust the team to get it done, you know? Like that's how you have success as a company. You can't be involved in everything.

Kevin Daisey (36:19)
the

I don't know that either.

I'm just gonna show up at the airport

and get on the plane, you know?

Jordan Ostroff (36:36)
There

we go. You know it's in Orlando, so you can confirm you're on the right plane. Everything else is gravy from there.

Kevin Daisey (36:41)
Yeah, I didn't know you had moved down to San Antonio. So that's awesome. I need to get down there and see some folks. So if there's a conference or I'll put it my list to just come down and see at some point.

Jordan Ostroff (36:50)
There we go. Let me know, man. I'll show you around.

Kevin Daisey (36:52)
Awesome everyone, thank you so much for tuning in, listening. Jordan's amazing. Again, we've been connected for a while now. If you're looking for help with your firm, not sure what to do, where to go, and you want to build a firm that you want to actually be part of running, he's a great person to connect with. So I urge you to do that, and we'll see you on the next episode.

Jordan, good to see you brother. See you soon.

Jordan Ostroff (37:13)
Thanks for

having me. See you in Nashville.

Kevin Daisey (37:15)
See you in Nashville. See y'all.